heartblock

Calling people 'daft' and 'thick' is rather rude. Do better.

Frying bacon emits 2.35 (2.22 ) μg/min of PM2.5.

Yes my partner saw jays on Greendale.. I love them, exotic looking and very bright ..as are all corvids.

That piece of research would be expensive and longitudinal .... it will not happen as anyone with meat in the game has no interest in ‘proving’ LTNs do not reduce pollution as over a Null hypothesis.

‘Scientists’ ie me…. Are taught to question any research and any outcomes. In fact the standard of quantitative research is the null hypothesis. Trying to prove that a theory is incorrect. Mal confuses questioning and understanding bias, with FB and Twitter types. I’ve looked at the data about PMs and I believe the data and see no evidence of bias… but I have peer reviewed and asked for rewrites or review of data as bias or poor statistics have been evident. ‘Scientists’ are people.. and are as likely to be biased by society, belief and upbringing as anyone. Hopefully good academic integrity and supervision when learning how to research - as well as reflective practice remove or contain some of this bias.

🤣

Nope ..not at all. Just because someone has a doctorate or have been awarded a professorship doesn't mean they are without bias or in many cases not as bright as you may think. Yes - expertise is great - but one must question and review. For many years 'experts' told us smoking was good for us, women were less intelligent than men and eggs were the cause of heart disease. Experts are influenced by society, bias and political regimes as much as anyone. The issue now is the echo chamber - so having one's opinion echoed and reinforced by a focused group - rather than independent search for the most likely and most evidenced 'truth'. At undergraduate level we teach our future professionals to evidence statements and explore ambiguities and differing opinions. A list of people with titles is meaningless.

And that is not a right wing 'don't trust the scientists' but do research yourself... everyone has a bias. The only research I really have absolute (or near absolute faith in) - is double-blind, randomised, multi-centre, proof-of-principle, independent , primary medical research - expensive and rare. The LTN research is dismal compared to this 'gold-standard'.

Oh I know lots of very thick 'Drs' and 'Profs'... so don't be fooled by a Phd or a title.

Well - anyway. I personally like a wood-burning stove, if I had access to some money I probably would have had one, but knowing what I know now..... I wouldn't, purely from a thinking about others POV. So - the particulates are huge, so we probably should not have them in London. They do produce toxins and particulates that cause cancer, heart disease and respiratory disease. Science by committee is not great. Meantime we allow burning of garden rubbish, BBQs and idling traffic. We eat bacon, play rugby, drink alcohol and use micro-plastics. I think honesty is the key, maybe we do stuff that we know may cause harm, but we do it anyway. Having all our actions monitored maybe too much of an imposition on our lives. LTNs are still cr*p though. :)

Exactly..the data set is flawed. I know that Rah x 3 would like think otherwise, but with some in-depth research of primary data and collection methods - they might see that if you count 500 rather than 1000 on an hourly basis during idling traffic at 'rush -hour' this may be flawed data in this instance. It would be similar to researching a drug that 'cures' heart disease but only being able to measure an improvement in 20 -50- year-old-men, so ignoring all women and men over 50 and claiming success as over the whole population an improvement .... but maybe ignoring that actually all women and all men over 50 die at least two years earlier...or have no improvement and continue to suffer. That is why Ella's Mum calls LTNs - lung apartheid - her words not mine. If you do not want to engage with why she believes this is her truth....then look at yourself.

Yes interesting, since the LTNs there have been three serious accidents on East Dulwich Grove, so in the space of three years...in the preceding 30 years only one. As I do not deal in flawed statistics as some might, to ‘prove’ a belief it may be a correlation rather than causation. Also an earlier poster used a tactic beloved of the right-wing of the LP - smear those you disagree with rather than argue your point and listen to the evidence from the opposing view. I can certainly say that the people I know are fully-vaxed, environmentally conscious and left- leaning individuals. Silly smearing campaigns from either side of the discussion don’t elevate any discussion or solution. Ella’s Mum and the London Mayor disagree fundamentally on LTNs and the Silvertown tunnel but you do not see either of them smearing or insulting each other on MSM or SM, while they both strive to reduce air pollution via their belief about was is best.

Where is the up to date data? Currently not published. I’m not sure this broadly successful holds. What is the particulate measure on boundary roads at peak travel time, what are the actual traffic numbers, now we are all aware that pneumatic traffic counters are inaccurate for idling traffic, as outlined by the manufacturers. What has Southwark put in place for boundary roads - remember all the promises before the local election?

Well I still recycle, walk, take the bus, train, mostly vegan etc. You are right though, only certain 'neighbourhoods' matter to this flawed Council. My neighbourhood was an LTN today as school half term and road closed for resurfacing..... fresh, clean air for a day...no traffic noise...if only I was a wealthy 3 vehicle, 2nd home owning, Gilkes Crescent, 2.5 Mil house owning resident, I could have access to clean air and low noise pollution all the days of the year. A LP Council benefiting the wealthy.. sad days indeed.

Exactly - a perfect example of smearing anyone with an opposing position by intimating they are anti-vaxers, Trumpians, misguided, climate-deniers, far-right etc. Rather than the teachers, Mums, health-workers etc. who travel by bus, foot, cycle and train - who's daily life has become far worse due to idling traffic, pollution and longer bus journeys because of these poorly planned LTNs. LTNs by the way on roads that are car-storage for the wealthiest people in ED. 15 minute... the 37 bus now takes so long to travel down ED Grove it has added more than 15 minute's to a daily journey to work.

Only LEDs allowed in Dull-wich.

I have had them in holiday let’s, and the child in me loves a bit of flame and heat, but once you understand the cellular pathology connected to particulates it is a very dangerous pleasure and very selfish too. I hadn’t really noticed the smell in ED but they must have been burning some green wood in Melbourne because although it psychologically smelt of childhood bonfire nights it triggered my first asthma attack of the year. I suppose I also connected it to the LTN argument as well, surely if we are supposedly encouraging active travel, we should be banning or at least regulating such a polluting and lethal activity?

Southwark Councillors have definitely painted One Dulwich as Conservative activists, so they can dismiss the questions and concerns from residents. This is a ploy used by many who promote road closures. A group of left leaning, different ethnicities women on Twitter, including teachers, other professionals and clean air activist Mums, with children suffering from asthma have noticed that they are told on a regular basis, usually by young, white male cyclists or Southwark/Lambeth/Hackney Councillors that they are... Mis-informed, easily-led, right-Wing, Covid deniers, anti-vaxers, climate-change deniers and various ways of calling them stupid. It’s a ploy, by smearing people or classifying them as thinking in some self-serving or unpopular political choice then the person discussing the points being made is attacked to detract from the fact the point or question is not addressed. Southwark Council seem particularly well versed on using this ploy, when the question or point becomes too difficult to answer or an action too difficult to defend - then they attack the messenger personally. I don’t know what Helen said myself, I’m very left wing, definitely more left wing than the current Labour Party or this diabolical Labour Council and I support almost all of One Dulwich’s points and disagree on some. Helen should engage, it’s a valid group with a mix of political views and a high number of elderly and less mobile residents.

"The dangers posed by wood burners in urban areas have become increasingly clear in recent years. Emissions from wood burners result in almost £1bn in health costs a year and are responsible for nearly half the cancer risk caused by urban air pollution." https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/feb/14/wood-burning-air-pollution-uk-doubled-decade. So - where can you smell them being used. I only started this thread as the smoke coming from one on Melbourne Grove South was triggering my asthma. Should they be banned in urban areas, or regulated in some way?

Maybe other builds should be completed first..such as the diabolical mess on East Dulwich Grove - with demolished buildings and a half-built School

The big flaw in all this data is not measuring increases in congestion. The pneumatic traffic counters are useless at this - even the manufacturers of these counters state they should not be utilised on roads where traffic idles or travels under 20km/hr. I do wonder if the counters on ED Grove count any of the morning traffic, that travels below 10Km/hr. At the moment with Townley rd -ED Grove road works it is lethal out there with car fumes, triggered my asthma this morning walking to Herne Hill Station, who knows what damage it is doing to all those young lungs on the school run. Southwark Councillors should be ashamed - not seen any of them on ED Grove since the last local election....have disappeared - much like the traffic hasn't.

It hasn't changed behaviour, car journeys taking children to school are getting longer, congestion in London has increased. We need better local public transport, schools within walking distance of the cohort and better cycling infra-structure, but making the bus routes on Croxted Rd and ED Grove unbearably long - which TFL have reported is entirely due to LTNs on non-school , car storage roads - isn't the answer.

Yep - 'my journey in a car is necessary and my car storage is appropriate - but yours isn't' ..... followed by pictures of children on bikes.

Great idea - why will it not happen? Car storage for the wealthy privileged few. Labour Council humph.

That's such a thoughtful act. I hope your daughter is ok.