When and why did ED become so poncey?

[Keef]

*Bob* Wrote:

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> Not you, Keef. You live in Sydenham, I believe -

> so therefore you're not a ponce.

> But in a few years, when Sydenham goes the same

> way as ED, you'll be a ponce as well.

>

> That's just how it is.

LOL... Am I so transparent? I look forward to being a Sydenham ponce. And, whilst it doesn't have the best High Street, I shall take solace in the fact that it's a far more beautiful area ;-)

Anyway, I feel that, whilst valid, the way this thread has moved on, it should perhaps be in another thread, not one called "When and why did ED become so poncey?"

[SeanMacGabhann]

Ah now Keef - if we started renaming threads everytime they moved on...

PS - I meant to agree with you back when you originally posted about Sydenham - walking around there a few weeks back I was struck by how nice the houses were.

Not that I can afford a house here, there or anywhere, but still

[macroban]

Just a personal observation about gentrification and contraction not backed up by any data:

Riverside is expanding Southward

Kennington is expanding Eastward

New Cross is expanding Westward

East Dulwich is expanding Northward

Something is contracting in the middle.

[Keef]

missd Wrote:

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> I think this is being made into a big issue about

> race when really it is more, as Frisco said above,

> a case of the ED area, and along towards some

> parts of Peckham Rye, becoming a bit wealthier.

> That's it -people of all races are becoming less

> and less able to buy there as the price of

> property is increasing. It's not that "white

> people are becoming the minority, and feeling they

> have to gravitate to a certain area and stick

> together to live"

Agree!!!

Threads like this will always move on to a class issue, and then perhaps a race one, and it really isn't the point.

As an aside, I have noticed that quite often it's the people that regularly say "why does it always come down to class", that seem to be the ones who bring it up :-S

I never quite know where to stand on these things, because I'm not obsessed with labelling myself and others.

[Ted Max]

Typical materialist!

[Frisco]

Lousia, that's not quite my recollection and I'm fairly sure that J&H went over 25 years ago, replaced by 'Houndsditch' in the very early 80s, I seem to recall. Plus, the first proposed route of the channel tunnel rail link affected areas along its whole route, not just Rye Lane and Peckham. Plus, retailers would have been compensated for loss of premises etc, so I think it's stretching it a bit to link the decline of Rye Lane with the channel tunnel rail link, as its Delcine began a long time before channel tunnel was planned.

Is "White Stuff" a national chain? M&S have denied rumours of a move to ED, which wasn't based on the Somerfield site, when rumours began, but on the fact that M&S were going to take over some Iceland store sites. Also, in 1988 M&S were closing lots of their smaller 'High Street' stores due to their profitability, in the same way that John Lewis closed its small and outdated department stores in areas such as Streatham and Holloway Road, etc. So what you are claiming seems to be nothing more than speculation in terms of M&S moving to ED. Also, Foxtons is not a national chain, it started off in Fuham in about 1982/3, I believe, and it is predominantly London based having spread gradually south and east from its West London roots, following house price rises and improving markets.

If you can't think of a single estate agent on Rye Lane, that may be due to lower levels of owner occupied property in the area, and be partly due to Rye Lane's general inaccessibility. The co-op chemist has been in LL for years and is probably a remnant of the old co-op shop that was next door (co-ops went out of fashion everywhere), Iceland's been there for years (and may not be doing too well). William Hill bookies are hardly a sign of gentrification, and indeed the betting shops in LL predate it. Tesco Express is almost everywhere now and I'd already mentioned Sainsburys move from Peckham myself, to what it presumably considered a more strategic site in terms of their contemporary developments, and which gave much greater access to parking.

I'm struggling to see your point.

[Louisa]

Frisco - White Stuff is a national chain. M&S were closing less profitable stores in the late 80's but that was not the reason for their departure from Peckham. C&A, BHS, Sainsburys, Clarks, Richards, the Entertainer, Rumbellows, just a handful of the famous retail names to abandon Peckham between 1985 and 1990.

Everyone - Race is not necessarily the sole issue at hand here, socio economic factors, transport links, class, they all contribute to the demographic changes experienced in an area over time. But I believe the changes we are seeing across London now are very different to those previously seen. We dont even have to put it in terms of Black and White, you could say it's an 'ethno-class' related issue. The movement out of London for working class whites (Peckham), the gentrication of an area attracting middle class whites (ED), and the situation left behind which leads to some areas being predominatly poorer, working class, and mostly ethnic minority. There are very few of the so called middle classes who gentrify an area from the ethnic minorities, they are mostly white. This isnt about labelling people, its about trying to understand in a logical way why people are not living and mixing together. The odd Black face in the EDT or the Bishop is not what I am talking about here either.

[*Bob*]

Louisa Wrote:

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C&A, BHS, Sainsburys, Clarks,

Richards, the Entertainer, Rumbellows, just a

handful o the famous retail names to abandon

Peckham between 1985 and 1990.

But surely half these stores didn't 'abandon peckham' - they disappeared nationwide. They don't exist anywhere any more.

[Louisa]

C&A did not leave the UK until 2000, so they were very much a mainstay of the British High Street back then. Clarks are still nationwide and indeed are the second largest shoe chain in the country. BHS remains a regular on almost every single major shopping area in the country, as does the Entertainer which is a large toy shop second only to Toys R Us.

Richards and Rumbellows both closed down, but I believe that was many years after they left Rye Lane.

[Louisa]

As for M&S and Sainsburys..

[James]

There's still a Clarks isn't there?

[Red_Cat]

Yes there is a clarks shop on rye lane i bought a pair of shoes there last week, also rumbelows was defo still there in 1995 as they sold me a wshing machine

[Louisa]

The shoe shop on Rye Lane which used to be the counter service Sainsbury's pre-1954, is not a Clark's shoe shop as such. It does sell predominantly Clarks products, but I think it's a seperate entinity, very much like the place on LL.

[Red_Cat]

I think it just sells seconds and end of line stuff. A couple of years ago a family stopped me on rye lane and asked for directions to the Clarks 'factory shop' They were extremely excited at the prospect the entire family having come all the way from Kent specially as they'd heard so much about it! Seems like rye lane isn't quite dead after all.

[Ted Max]

Clarks Factory Shop it is indeed. Not at all like the place on LL. You're slipping Louisa.

[Frisco]

Louisa, you've listed stores that left Peckham, challenging people's reasons for their departure, but you appear to be ignoring the fact that they left other similar areas too, and the fact that there was a recession between 1988 and 1995, combined with a rapidly changing retail sector.

However, I'd suggest the following, in terms of local influence:

- BHS consolidated and probably couldn't justify having a store in Peckham as well as at Surrey Quays.

- M&S rationalised their trading, and probably took a view that either the Peckham or Walworth Road would have to go.

- C&A were contracting in the eventual lead-up to them ceasing to trade in the UK.

- Clarkes Shoes went through a considerable profit crisis, and Peckham wouldn't have fitted their target market.

- Richards disappearance was probably connected with parent company policy.

- Rumbelows went the way of most electrical retailers.

"But surely half these stores didn't 'abandon peckham' - they disappeared nationwide. They don't exist anywhere any more."

This is exactly right, and the moves by chains stores, etc. out of Rye Lane has to be seem in the wider context and not just in the narrow sense of the decline of a narrow local area. There has been a huge national shift in retail in the last 15 years, and Rye Lane isn't the only area that suffered decline. I know it's been stated that White Stuff is a national chain of stores, it's not a chain in the sense that I meant or understand, such as Next, Topshop, etc.

The White stuff website is here http://www.whitestuff.com/WhiteStuffSite/pages/stores/cms.asp?pid=UKStores

I'd never come across it before, but it does seem like the kind of smaller clothing shop that will bring employment to what has been in struggling shopping area in terms of retail (as opposed to nick nack shops, estate agents and bars) employment. Also, I don't consider a total of 35 shops in selected locations to be a nationalwide chain, in the widely understood sense of the term. However, the fact that they are coming to ED, while it is an indication of changes to the area, isn't exactly like having an Argos, etc. Presumably the Lordship Lane shopping area is now considered the type of place that can support this kind of niche clothing shop, whereas it would be unlikely to be able to support a branch of W H Smith or Boots the Chemist, both of which would undoubtedly have an adverse effect on small independent businesses, over and above what the new larger Sainsburys will have.

[citizenED]

In our ED street in the houses immediately around us, it goes like this: Young white family - young mixed race family - black family - white family - white senior lady - mixed race family - white family - mixed race family. I think part of the problem assessing the ethnicity of varying areas is the sort of 'headline' approach. If you sat in a cafe on LL and watch the people go by you do not necssarily get a flavour of the ethnic make-up of ED. LL is not exactly a shopper's haven when you have Rye Lane so close and Lewisham Centre just a short journey away. Both offer loads more.

The census will give a better picture.

citizen

[shaman]

ED is very diverse yes now there is a large young white middle classs population, however shops are mostly owned and run by non -english peoples providing rich variety of choose many businesses apart are owned by asian and turkish peoples or italian they maybe first or second generation immigrents but london as always been a cultural melting poty and is the greater for it the ghettoisation of peckham was to do with poor social planning asnd lack of funding the decline of rye lane was the result of shortsighted planning policies in the late seventies and eighties by southwark council, having set on some of the commities at the time there was little power residing within rye lane politically and council directed spending else where.

[Michael Palaeologus]

Peckham has changed significantly in the close to 20 years that I have been around. It was diverse in population then, but the highest profile group was the Vietnamese, primary immigrants who were Boat-People (remember them?).

Peckham high street was on its *rse with so many empty shops and market stalls.

20 years on we have a vibrant Peckham, it has big social problems, but there are few empty shops. The African, Vietnamese and Asian shops and market stalls are fascinating - if you take time to wander around them. It is ironic that some feel that the big high street chains NOT being Peckham is a problem. In Peckam we have a place packed full of small shops run by Entrepreneurs that would go out of business if the big chains arrivd.

God knows (quite literally) how many churches there are in Peckham and these bind and support significant chunks of the population.

Now the Vietnamese are on their 2nd generation. They will drift away from Peckham as they become more affluent; because that what immigrants do and have done for thousands of years. You arrive and settle with your people because that is what feels safe, you will be in a dwn at heel area because that is what is cheap, life is difficult, but slowly you make money, your kids grow up as Britons and over the generations you slowly drift away from your starting point. Then the next wave of immigrants come in and off we go again. That is not to say that there will be huge challenges and problems and some take longer than others to fully find their place.

The Africans have now come in and they have been the stimulus for eonomic regeneration in Peckham. It all looks very different and it has that "edge" that is apparently attractive to some.

[SeanMacGabhann]

What a splendidly eloquent post Mr P

[karter]

hey sean

you havent posted much today, is the roof on your house awright?

[SeanMacGabhann]

flat i a OK Karter - cheers for asking

was aht and ahbaht yesterday so little online time (and now we are chatting off topic so...)

I went to a restaurant and 3 different bars last night, and all of them had a more diverse makeup that the consensus arrived at in this thread. Inside 72 at one point was about 10% Spanish, 30% Afro-Carribean, 10% Asian, 10% Oriental and 40% Caucasian

And everyone was in fine fettle !

[Marmora Man]

Any large rabbits toward the end of the evening? (you have to be old enough to remember the film "Harvey" with James Stewart for this to work).

[ghostlymaiden]

"Peckham high street was on its *rse with so many empty shops and market stalls."

My family have lived in Peckham for generations and I resent people making such off the cuff comments. The market was flourishing right up until it was closed for no reason really, and then reopened with loads of ethnic butchers and fishmongers, if there were not enough of those already on Rye Lane. The major chains were not the only aspect of shopping in Peckham, it had a lot of smaller local businesses which had been around for many years and spread into other parts of London. Kennedys sausages had three shops along Rye Lane, Pollards the upholsterers had two, and Jones and Higgins had been in Peckham for nearly 150 years.

"20 years on we have a vibrant Peckham, it has big social problems, but there are few empty shops. The African, Vietnamese and Asian shops and market stalls are fascinating - if you take time to wander around them. It is ironic that some feel that the big high street chains NOT being Peckham is a problem. In Peckam we have a place packed full of small shops run by Entrepreneurs that would go out of business if the big chains arrivd."

Why would people who have lived all their lives in Peckham want to go into some of these smelly and often dirty shops? I have walked past some of these outlets and I have seen rats running from under the shutters. It is absolutely disgusting, and the only reason the health inspection authorities have not taken action is because they would probably end up being accused of picking on the minority community. Its a shambles, and the reason the white population of Peckham has disappeared is because they have nowhere to shop anymore, and are sick and tired of the way the place has become lawless. the whole area is becoming a ghetto and no one has the guts politically or socially to admit this.

"God knows (quite literally) how many churches there are in Peckham and these bind and support significant chunks of the population."

Significant chunks of the population? So I guess once again we are talking about Black African churches aimed at Black Africans.

"The Africans have now come in and they have been the stimulus for eonomic regeneration in Peckham. It all looks very different and it has that "edge" that is apparently attractive to some."

This edge you talk of, was brought about by gun/knife and drug crimes. The whole reason this area became so notorious was because the local authorities decided it would be a great idea to pick a poor area like Peckham and play around with a few ideas they have about social housing. The result was a sink estate which attracted the worst of the worst. Most of the people who lived there 20 years ago have now gone, so I hope it's good for everyone sat on their ivory tower in East Dulwich thinking how wonderfully edgy Peckham is. Let me assure you, it has become a horrible place.

[Jeremy]

I don't think that Peckham is "wonderfully edgy". I think that Rye Lane is smelly, dirty, and feels unsafe after dark. North Peckham is even worse. I cannot really agree with Michael P's rose-tinted view.