Admissions to Secondary School

[zeban]

Mark Dodds Wrote:

> On the interesting question of would I want my

> boy/s to go to Dulwich College (or Eton for that

> matter) based on the proposition of being able to

> afford it, the answer is 'no' definitely not -

> just as vehemently as 'no, definitely not' is the

> way we feel about the place at a faith school.

I'm absolutely with you there. Couldn't think of anything worse!

[Mark Dodds]

One last night cap! Maybe you're right but then the local authority is encouraging lots of new builds - Camberwell is awash with them, I can think of over three hundred new homes just built or nearing completion - and more people to move into the area - without coughing anything up to provide better services to meet increased demand for anything.

Did you respond when I asked about kids? Maybe I missed it but in the absence of knowing I'll suggest that when you have kids about to go to a school you think is not up to their needs your perspective will narrow.

[zeban]

I'm sure you are right however I also think as parents you feel more scared at the prospect of schools than the actual children and forget how much of a major role you also play in your childs outcome/education. I know my Mum was really anxious about my brother going to secondary school as it was a new academy with not a lot to go on. But he's doing fine and given my Mum I know he'ld do well anyway no matter what.

I love the pub idea! Your children will definitely learn a thing or two about life there!

[Msgee]

Mark Dodds Wrote:

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>

> That reminds me. Someone above assumed there would

> be places at Peckham Academy. To reiterate - ALL

> Southwark schools are FULL - Forty Three Kids Were

> Officially NOT Offered a Place Anywhere in

> Southwark. That's a lot of not offered a place.

>

I appreciate that, Mark, but you can bet your arse a lot of those places won't get taken up...

the shortage of places has got to have something to do with people taking their children out of private sector education over the last couple of years- at least, that's a pretty commonly held view afaik. Not that that excuses the LEA, mind- but it is an additional pressure and possibly not forseen? Do correct me if I'm wrong

...as for sending my kids to Dulwich- I'd rather chew off my arm. I believe passionately in a fair education and equal opportunities for everyone- I believe in comprehensives. That's why I picked KD in the first place.

[Otta]

I know a guy who home educated his daughter. My first question was, didn't she miss out on the social side? He said she had loads of mates, because there are groups who home educate, it's not all done in your house. His daughter was getting ready for a levels at 15. It's something that I'll certainly consider in the future.

[Otta]

Question - if you could have your tax allocation back, and add a little to it - say ?1000, would you not prefer to send your child to Dulwich College? THat is where we need to get to as a country. The state should not provide education. It is so clear - it simply isn't working.

Wow!!! You should be a Tory MP. All the wealthiest people chosing the best schools. Do you honstly believe that that is what this country needs?

Hate to break it to you, but I suspect you'd have to add a hell of a lot more than ?1k to the portion of your tax that is spent on education, in order to afford DC, which costs about ?5k a term!

Do you also believe that there should be no NHS, and that instead of paying tax, we should just buy in our health care?

[BB100]

Dorothy Wrote:

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> I think most parents would like their children to

> go to schools 1 and 2 on their list, 3 at a push.

> Which leaves choices 4, 5 and 6 ... where

> exactly?>

> Is there really any point to having 6 "choices"

>

Yes there is. It allows parents with a guaranteed sibling place to put 5 grammar schools above it.

Msgee Wrote:

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> it was because it succeeded-after a long struggle-

> in attracting a mixture of kids The school didn't

> change, the ED/mc perception of it changed.

I would expect the Head at Kingsdale is now choking on his coffee. If Kingsdale didn't change it would never have attracted a mix of children. The environment changed - all ?30million of it, class sizes changed, the ethos and discipline regime, the curriculum, the extra-curr, the GCSE results and the key thing is there is now leadership..........I have friends who were pupils at Kingsdale in the 70's and 80's who say the school is unrecognisable and is a completely different school from the one they went to. They would not have sent their children (who are in year 8) there otherwise.

Mark Dodds Wrote:

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>Resources need to be poured into socialising children at nursery and primary so they are more than capable of being self >propelled at learning by the time they are at high school age. Class

> sizes at early years should be much smaller than

> they are; 18 maximum and classes should have two

> adult support staff or trained parent volunteers

> alongside each teacher so that groups of six

> children are always in close contact with a good

> role model throughout their academic day.

>

You must have been reading the Early Years journals lately Mark. All the committment and money pumped into Early Years in the past few years was to do exactly what you suggest but it's now being clawed back, and some. It's an easy target because two years olds can't vote.

[CityMum]

I have been reading this thread with interest as we also failed to get an offer from any of the 6 schools on our list. Contrary Mrs Danvers?s assertion, we have a crystal clear understanding of how the system works & how it has failed us. Our 6 schools were selected on the basis of preference & precedent. We paid heed to where children from our primary school have traditionally transferred, thus our 1st choice was a school to which 11 of last year?s yr6 went. Not being a gambling kind of gal, I?d been interested to know how one assesses whether or not one has a ?realistic chance? of getting into a school where allocation of places is made by random selection. Whether or not random selection is the way to go, I don?t know. I can certainly see why Kingsdale chose this route. However, surely it can only work if all schools adopt the same policy? At the moment we have a situation in which a disproportionate number of Southwark schools have this system, meaning that kids from neighbouring boroughs have the same chance of getting places in say ? Kingsdale, as Southwark kids. This is fine but the same courtesy is not afforded to Southwark children willing & able to go to schools out of borough, where catchment areas operate for most schools.

Our child is a bright, sociable & enthusiastic kid, whose needs would not be served by Peckham Academy at the present time. This is not because of where it is or who goes there but because at present the curriculum is too narrow & the bar set too low. I have faith that the current head teacher will turn it around, but not in time for us. Kingsdale was a mess, it changed & then it went out of its way to promote the fact it had changed. People gained faith in the school & now it is popular. To suggest that we & others in our situation get behind failing schools & use our children as sacrificial lambs for the greater good is ridiculous & ultimately futile. The schools must show a commitment to change & meet us half-way in order to persuade even the most liberal, social minded parent ? whether Tesco-Mum-of-5 or Barrister-Dad-of-2 ? to indulge in a spot of amateur social engineering.

[Otta]

I do agree that all schools should have to have the same admissions policies, at least for a set number of places, say 80%, then they could take their pick for 20% of their intake.

I think too much power has been handed to schools, so that they are now run as businesses, and head teachers, are basically managers.

I think some aspects of education need to be run more centrally, in order to make a fairer system, and start schools on a more level playing field. This in itself would stop a lot of the class nonsense and snobbery that is attached to school applications.

[Renata Hamvas]

To my knowledge, only Kingsdale allocates places purely by random allocation with banding ie lottery (except top ranked scholarship, siblings, etc). Bacon's College does have random allocation but with an outer(25 percent) and inner (75 percent)catchment area. Other schools all select by distance/catchment or on religious grounds. As Kingsdale is at the Southern tip of Southwark, by the borough boundary, if it selected on distance, it could be that fewer rather than more Southwark children would be offered a place there! Many Southwark children do go to schools outside Southwark, eg selective schools in Kent and Sutton, Haberdasher's Askes on distance, London Nautical by random allocation.

Renata

[CityMum]

I agree with Otta. The playing field is far from level & in Southwark the problem has been exacerbated by the large numbers of faith schools, many of which are poor. Our experience is as follows:- Parents are asked to list 6 schools on the Pan London form & for our family, it had to be co-ed. If you have a son, you immediately cross off all the girls schools of which there are quite a few successful ones. If you are of no faith or aetheist, your choice is further cut down. You then have to eliminate schools such as the Charter School or Askes unless you live within a few hundred metres. For schools such as Graveney, literally thousands apply for one of the selective places - about 60 - and the qualifying figure this year was 97% in the Wandsworth test. A large number of applicants come from prep schools where they have been extensively coached for entrance exams, so even the very bright kids are likely to loose out & where marks are tied, distance judgments will be made. Next you eliminate your 'school from hell' - & let's face it everyone has one. By now the list of potential schools is looking very sparse. You search around for a 'safe bet' or a 'fall back' - what about Walworth? We had high hopes for that one but have only met one child who has got a place there. Even kids who can see the school from their homes haven't got in. By now you're down to the schools with a random allocation system because that is all that is left but hey, least they happen to be good ones. At the end of the day, for us the question was not the one posed by all the Head Teachers in their open day addresses ie 'Which school would be best for your child?' but rather the one posed by Clint Eastwood in 'Dirty Harry' - 'Do you feel lucky, well do you?' This, I'm very much afraid, is the reality of parental choice in Southwark and, I suspect, many other parts of London.

[FatherJack]

CityMum

A PERFECT description of exactly what secondary school transfer is within Southwark 2011.

[Mark Dodds]

SO. Who's going to join me in writing to Michael Gove, Harriet Harman, Tessa Jowell, the local education authorities and Toby Young about this ludicrous affair?

Notes on a postcard please...

PS I've had two people send me private messages suggesting they would be interested

[Dorothy]

I would Mark, me me me!

But, actually, I think you only need to put CityMum's two posts in a letter for a perfect summing up of the problem.

[Fuschia]

Mark Dodds Wrote:

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> SO. Who's going to join me in writing to Michael

> Gove...Toby Young about this

> ludicrous affair?

Hardly... I think you will find their support for free schools and academies further serves to fragment the situation. No coincidence that this admissions chaos is so prominent here in Southwark where there are no community secondary schools with admissions policies under the control of the LA

[Msgee]

BB100 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Msgee Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > it was because it succeeded-after a long

> struggle-

> > in attracting a mixture of kids The school

> didn't

> > change, the ED/mc perception of it changed.

>

> I would expect the Head at Kingsdale is now

> choking on his coffee. If Kingsdale didn't change

> it would never have attracted a mix of children.

> The environment changed - all ?30million of it,

> class sizes changed, the ethos and discipline

> regime, the curriculum, the extra-curr, the GCSE

> results and the key thing is there is now

> leadership..........

>

I appreciate that, BB- what I was saying (sorry if it wasn't clear) is that Kingsdale changed long before it became seen as a 'good' school, and one for midle class parents to fight to get their kids into. Even a couple of years ago I'd bet that a lot of the parents who are now trying to get their children in wouldn't have gone near the place due to its old reputation. As for leadership- as far as I know the Head has been there for donkeys (as head- I know he did his time as a maths teacher there, too)

[intexasatthe moment]

Head since 1998 and building revamp finished in 2007 - I agree Msgee ,schools also have to have the right intake to take off .

[maxti]

To Mark Dodds - count me in.....my situation is identical of citymum and many others...carefully weighed up realistic choices etc and got a dud....we actually had sydenham girls (dont really want single sex but not many options)as 3rd choice but didnt get a place because dd's banding this year turned out to be a tight catchment - my neighbour who lives further away got a place - it was her 5th choice and only put it down to fill the places up...anyway very disillusioned with the process...

have actually worded 2 e-mails to harriet harman but never sent as they were emotional rather than factual...but happy to play a part in doing something - and it may not be for our kids but the next ones coming along...

Also checking out the results for GSCE's - kingsdale blagged 70% (A*-C grades)- actually if you look at schools across southwark and lewisham (observer/guardian or bbc link) they only got 59%..same as walworth (which only last year was a "sink" school) and i dont know anyone who put it as a choice got in either!

Is anyone appealing....I am still undecided...might go to kingsdales info evening on it if only to see other parents etc

[Mark Dodds]

Thanks to those of you who are showing an interest. It will be a big task but nothing is impossible, especially when there is such obvious need.

I've been in touch with Toby Young for advice, he's replied already by the way, and have emailed Michael Gove. Will set up an email address for this topic and post back with an update soon.

We need a 40,000sq ft building with land adjacent. OR a similar sized plot to accommodate a new build. Any ideas?

[zeban]

So where are you planning to get the money from for this school? I hope not the public purse given that it will take money away from the schools that already need it.

Have you actually gone through the normal procedure of appealing first anyone?

[westof]

It might also be worth getting in touch with the people who got Elmgreen School in Tulse Hill up & running, AFAIK that was completely parent-led, with no involvement from sponsors of the ARK & Harris kind.

SSCIL (Secondary School Campaign in Lambeth) is long gone I think, but I think it was their campaign which eventually led to Lambeth Academy & Evelyn Grace Academy opening - both of those are sponsored Academies (United Learning Trust & Ark).

[Queenie23]

Kingsdale got 70% A - C. What did they get with the new bacc test the government have brought it? 4%. Not so wonderful.

[westof]

A lot of other very good schools with a broad intake scored low on the EBacc though. The state schools with very high scores tended to be grammars or other selectives, not community schools.

Yes, it might indicate that some of Kingsdale's A-C results were gained though BTEC courses - but that in itself isn't neccessarily a bad thing.

If nothing else, it shows that they are still catering to a broad ability intake, and hopefully fitting children to the right courses for the individual.

On a purely selfish note, I hope the EBacc scoring means that schools in general aren't tempted to push middle-range students onto 'safe' BTEC courses - but it was still pretty sneaky to score schools on it, out of the blue.

[maxti]

kingsdale did not get 70% statistics can be manipulated to suit your needs - they only got 59%

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/education/school_tables/secondary/10/html/210.stm

[westof]

Yes, the 70% statistic is "70% of all English, Mathematics and Science entries reached Grade A* to C" which as far as I can see, is a measure only used by Kingsdale.

The 59% is for the percentage of pupils getting 5 A-C grades including Maths & English - this is the standard one to compare with other schools. 59% is still good, though, and the general movement seems to be upwards.