What shops do we NEED in ED then? (Lounged)

[citizenED]

Hold your horses, we've already got TGI Burger Kitchen

[snorky]

peckhamboy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Absolutely. Let's boycott Sainsburys. And

> Somerfield, Budgens, Barclays, HSBC, The Bishop,

> CPT, Plough, Green and Blue, all the petrol

> stations and anybody else with the temerity to run

> a business from more than one outlet. It amazes me

> how blinkered people on here get over the whole

> chain/independent thing. Not all chains are bad -

> for anyone with a job, places like Sainsburys that

> open outside of "normal" shopping hours are

> essential. Not all independents are good - some of

> them have poor service, poor stock, inconvenient

> opening hours and inflated prices.

exactly!

boycott the indies

[Keef]

I'm with you Peckhamboy. People think that East Dulwich is some magical quaint little place with unique little shops... What a load of bo!!ocks. It does have some lovely little businesses, but could definitely benefit from a few bigger names too! That's what I think anyway.

PS. I love the name "spudulike"!

Subway please!!!!!

[Alan Dale]

The Pier

Joking apart it would be nice to have a local owner managed organic butcher - the meat at Sainos is a bit average.

[peckhamboy]

We could actually do with a couple of decent clothes shops as well, so that my girlfriend doesn't keep trying to drag me out to hellholes like oxford street and bluewater...

White Stuff (chain or not) is a start. For all those who prefer independents, there's an independent men's clothing shop by Texaco on Grove Vale. Judging by the lack of activity in there, you're not all putting your money where your mouth is on that one.

[peckhamboy]

Alan Dale Wrote:

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> The Pier

>

> Joking apart it would be nice to have a local

> owner managed organic butcher - the meat at Sainos

> is a bit average.

It would never work. there just isn't the demand for that in ED.

[ed_pete]

"If he nicks my pint I'll firkin thump him. "

Not quite Jah,

Phoenix my pint I'll Firkin thump him.;-)

[Jah Lush]

You're quite right Ed-Pete, I stand corrected and I even had the blooming tee-shirt.

[Domitianus]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm with you Peckhamboy. People think that East

> Dulwich is some magical quaint little place with

> unique little shops... What a load of bo!!ocks. It

> does have some lovely little businesses, but could

> definitely benefit from a few bigger names too!

> That's what I think anyway.

>

> PS. I love the name "spudulike"!

>

> Subway please!!!!!

I a\gree with Keef and PeckhamBoy that this rant against chain stores is often misplaced. It seems to stem from some rather perverse and ironic anti-capitalist perspective that the ranters can't quite articulate - perverse and ironic because many of the critics of the chains are local businesses and, therefore, capitalist themselves.

Chain usually have become chains because, having started as a small concern, they became SUCCESSFUL (oh, how the British despise other people's success!) and were able to expand. Can we extract a written, legally-binding pledge from all the local businesses who attack the chains that, no matter how successful they become (as if they don't want to be) they will NEVER open a second outlet? After all, if chains are so bad they wouldn't want to become one, would they?

[snorky]

local businesses attack the chains because it make them face up to the reality of capitalism & reodes their hefty margins

thats the problem with capitalism,m its great when ist going well for you, but has a nasty habit of swinging around and nipping your arse later on

SShopkeeprs do not do it for any reason of commumity solidarity, despite their reiteration of the community theme at every opportunity - read some of the sickening mission statements displayed in local shops- vomit inducing

many local retailers will be selling fireworls, cigs and white lightning to under aged yoof in the coming weeks - its hardly a comunity service is it ?

dont trust the shopkeepers.

[snorky]

I have a feeling I am going to be bollocked for my posting above

[barrymarshall]

Domitianus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I a\gree with Keef and PeckhamBoy that this rant

> against chain stores is often misplaced. It seems

> to stem from some rather perverse and ironic

> anti-capitalist perspective that the ranters can't

> quite articulate - perverse and ironic because

> many of the critics of the chains are local

> businesses and, therefore, capitalist themselves.

>

> Chain usually have become chains because, having

> started as a small concern, they became SUCCESSFUL

> (oh, how the British despise other people's

> success!) and were able to expand. Can we extract

> a written, legally-binding pledge from all the

> local businesses who attack the chains that, no

> matter how successful they become (as if they

> don't want to be) they will NEVER open a second

> outlet? After all, if chains are so bad they

> wouldn't want to become one, would they?

hear, hear! All the mega-brands people love to hate, eg Starbucks or Gap, started out as small businesses that grew into global giants. And yes it is odd that self-styled "anti-capitalists" support local businesses and small scale shops. If nothing else this is entrepreneurialism and capitalism at its most pure form. I have worked for small companies and mega corporations, and while we may not like the idea of big bureaucracy, etc., give me the paid holidays, insurance, clear-cut working hours, overtime and bonuses, none of which I ever got wokring in shops, where the money was always crap and the hours long. Most "anti-capitalists", despite the rhetoric and geniunely good intentions, are really just romantic reactionaries.

[PS, I don't think capitalism is the be-all either.]

[SeanMacGabhann]

ooh do I not like being called inarticulate....

I think I have said before that I am not black and white on the issue. But being local-shop biased (rather than anti-chain) has nothing whatsoever to do with an anti-capitalist stance and to portray it as such is at best cheeky and at worst... well very bad indeed ;-)

And it also needs stating that we are in agreement on local business not necessarily being any good. Some are god-awful

Also a point that needs clarifying - independant versus chain. Another blind alley.... Yes business start off small and expand to other outlets so they are in effect a chain. But for the sake of my argument, by chain-store I mean the mega-big, ubiquitous operations.. k? k

So why am I reluctant to embrace them? Even if they can do somethings better. Many reason

1) - any town where they dominate. Many of us have lived in these places. And left. Because they aren't nice places - with the life sucked out of them and the blandalanda aspect of each and every highstreet

2) And this might sound anti-capitalistic but isn't. The mega stores are very efficient at sucking money out of producers/suppliers and local communities and syphoning up to Offshore Tax Haven #57575677 (or, if you prefer tax dodging welfare parasites) and also explains why the rest of us are left scrabbling for loose change (in wages for example)

I want people to make money - but I want it to be you, me, that woman down the road with the interesting ideas on Reiki

This Warehouse business that's opening up seems like a good example (of the Good variety)

3) A bad local business is bad but responsible to the local community. A bad HQ based business has no link whatsoever. Nor does a good HQ based business for that matter

4) Chains are stifling competition not promoting or aiding it. See my comment about most high streets in the country for proof. ED ain't perfect but we take what we have for granted at our peril

[snorky]

a considered well thought out sensible post.

[Keef]

As Snorky said, a good post, but I have to say Sean, that I think you were defending yourself when it wasn't really you that was being aimed at.

I also agree that the ED Warehouse sounds great, but if I was looking for (just say) an interesting and unique necklace for Mrs Keef, I would still go in there, even if there was an "Accessorize" next door, as would most people I think. We all know exactly what we're going to get from a chain, and if I want a certain thing, I like to be able to nip to whatever shop and get it. However, if I want something a bit different, it's nice to have an alternative.

NOTE: Accessorize is a shop that I hate with a passion having had a scouse girlfriend who liked it WAY too much! But you get what I'm trying to say.

There's room for both people.

[SeanMacGabhann]

lol Keef. I think I know the sort of gal

As for defending myself - cheers, but you never know. And besides I took it upon myself to speak for "us" ;-)

I agree to a point - there is SOME room for both. But there comes a tipping point where you turn around one day and don't recognize where you live (and despite some posts in recent weeks, the arrival of Foxtons etc hasn't changed the area THAT much)

Talking of Islington (elsewhere) , that O2 centre that opened up there - not long ago before it opened there was a big club (The Blue Note, some smaller record shops and a continuation of the area vibe)

Since 02 opened it's now crawling with Mallrats and a low-level sense of threatening behaviouyr as everyone competes to shop in the same 10 branded stores as anywhere else. God I hate that place. And it's home to one of the most cynical music venues I know

[MrBen]

As has been said many times there have been chains here for ages anyway - Somerfields,Iceland Barclays etc. But surely a balance is best for all. And if you have some great independent local shops they add to the character of a place and give it individuality.

Supermarkets are great for convenience - get everything in one place when you are in a hurry. But if you really wanted you could go to the butchers get your steak, grocery on Northcross get your veg, the deli get your posh sour dough loaf, cheese block (how good is that shop?!) and get your er...cheese. Thats what people did before supermarkets!

Iceland cannot last much longer - the value of the real estate will soon be of greater interest than it's takings from its (rapidly declining) clientele. So a Waitrose or M&S is only a matter of time there.

MrBen votes for what we need round here:

- Yes agree that an organic bakery would fly

- A communal seating cheap Asian food type joint

- An organic pizza place

- An organic kebab shop

- A menswear shop called Mr Robinson (selling stripey jumpers and Stalin esque hats)

- An organic estate agents

- A hemp based, organic fairtrade babywear store

- An organic three wheel buggy showroom (with a waiting list for the most in demand models)

- Some stocks on Goose Green for putting estate agents in like they did in 1796. Allow the ED public to throw mushy tomatoes and plums at them.

- A new paint job for the CPT and a menu serving Thai food. They also need to bump up the price of beer there as it is way too cheap.

- A good place to buy organic hemp underwear (M&S is always good but it seems my pants are made by child slaves in France)

- An small independent cinema showcasing the latest indie film on oppression in Iraq alongside classics like Rambo:First Blood

- A B&Q could be built instead of that proposed school on Peckham Rye - much greater benefit to the community

- A new range of luxury penthouse flats opposite the CPT (for ease of access)

That's all....

[Brendan]

MrBen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> - Some stocks on Goose Green for putting estate

> agents in like they did in 1796. Allow the ED

> public to throw mushy tomatoes and plums at them.

Organic mushy tomatoes and plums mind.

[monica]

snorky Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> local businesses attack the chains because it make

> them face up to the reality of capitalism & reodes

> their hefty margins

>

> thats the problem with capitalism,m its great when

> ist going well for you, but has a nasty habit of

> swinging around and nipping your arse later on

>

>

> SShopkeeprs do not do it for any reason of

> commumity solidarity, despite their reiteration of

> the community theme at every opportunity - read

> some of the sickening mission statements displayed

> in local shops- vomit inducing

>

> many local retailers will be selling fireworls,

> cigs and white lightning to under aged yoof in the

> coming weeks - its hardly a comunity service is it

> ?

>

> dont trust the shopkeepers.

You are right Snorky,You are going to get a B********g

As a independant shopkeeper I have never hid my identity on here because i feel on my part my Identity should be Known.I cannot expect everyone to support just the independant shops,however despite what you may think,the Independant shopkeepers on Lordship lane are very much a community,we all get on brilliantly,we watch out for each other and we do our best to look after the patrons of East Dulwich.

If you were concerned about your last post you should of removed it.You left it to gauge a response and yes you flaming well got 1.so yes you have been well and truly b***************

[Keef]

Wouldn't you all still get along great if there were a couple of chain shops around?

[monica]

Keef we would i just had to retaliate to Snorky and his comment about the independants

[atila the gooner]

We need a decent record shop that sells vinyl at sensible prices, a decent greengrocers, and FEWER poncey coffe shops and pubs selling poncey food at ridiculous prices.

[Catalyst]

atila the gooner Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We need a decent record shop that sells vinyl at

> sensible prices

Not while this thing called The Internet is around. ;-)

And to the person who suggested Waterstones, has it failed to reach your attention that there's already a very decent book shop in East Dulwich?

Some astoundingly mainstream dullards in this thread.

[Bellenden Belle]

Actually while I have no desire for a Waterstones (they can keep their 3 for 1 offers from Richard and Judy's booklist) , I would disagree that East Dulwich already has a very decent book shop. Chener Books is not particularly welcoming; I never feel relaxed in there; and the staff are entirely disinterested. Good bookshops are inspiring - Chener is depressing.

I would love to see a Daunt Books - - yes it's a small chain (3 shops in North London) , but it still retains its independent spirit and it seems to be run by booklovers for booklovers.

I haven't trawled through the rest of the thread but I hope someone has mentioned the need for some decent sushi in se22.

[atila the gooner]

Record buying via the net is a mugs game as you never know if the item you end with will be even close to the description given, especially on Ebay (which is HUGELY overrated). I know, I've used it for years and buy records from shops and record fairs, Ebay comes a long way back in my choice of how to buy vinyl. You can't beat actually seeing the record and listening to it before you buy.