Who started the regeneration of East Dulwich as a shopping centre?

[Frisco]

"Perhaps because it's not true?"

Of course I should have specified, particularly for the benefit of the overly literal, that I did mean post-Dr Beeching, but I'm glad you were around then and such an obvious train nerd as to be able to recall such fine detail. Were they steam, and did you copy that from your trainspotting book?

I didn't mean to suggest that ED station had never had a Sunday train service, but I do realise that it was possible for pendants to read it that way. However, it certainly was true immediately prior to the period under discussion, unless you're suggesting that the regeneration of ED started in the 1950s.

So, for the benefit of the dysfunctionally precise, ED station did not have a Sunday train service when I moved to ED in the mid-1980s, or for a number or years after that, which included the earlier part of the period under discussion here. Other off-peak weekday services were also poor at that time. As, actually, were peak-time services, which is why I stopped using the train in 1991 to commute to Camden.

ED station had no public address system (I was told that investment in this kind of technology had been stopped as as result of the other investment required following the determined outcome of the Clapham rail disaster and because of planned denationalisation. There were no boards showing updated arrival/departure times. If London Bridge or outward-bound trains were cancelled the ticket office staff had to walk up the ramp to the outward-bound platform and shout information to waiting passengers. If London bound passengers dared to go down to the ticket office to enquire themselves, if no-one had appeared, they risked missing a train if it appeared when they were doing that. Otherwise, it was a brilliant service.

Jeez, some people.

[Muttley]

To some extent the regeneration began in the mid 1980s. In 1986, East Dulwich was beginning to get swept up in the property boom that followed 'Big Bang' in the City, and it was being 'discovered' by yuppies. My recollection is the same as Frisco's, that in the mid 80s you couldn't get a train to East Dulwich after about 9.30pm weekdays, and nothing on Sundays. So late evening trains, whenever they came, made the area seem more accessible.

There were lots of skips in my road in 1987, The Observer did a piece about great old flats you could buy on Goose Green, and house prices more than doubled in three years. There was a good restaurant called Le Careme, all the Indian restaurants, plus the Time Out recommended Thai Pavilion on Melbourne Grove. Then things came to an abrupt halt in 1988, and there were a few years of stagnation (some house prices dropped by at least 25% from their peak).

I agree with those who say Sainsbury's arrival was a key moment. When was that, 1992 ish? There were two big worries at the time, that it would generate horrific traffic jams throughout the area (didn't happen) and that it would kill off shops on LL (to some extent did happen - the last butchers, greengrocers etc all gradually disappeared). I'm sure that being a place with a Sainsbury's put East Dulwich on the map for many people.

Of the other 'turning points', one that stood out for me was when East Dulwich Tavern, by reputation the roughest pub on Lordship Lane, got done up as the EDT. That started the game of pub leapfrog, where the next roughest pub on the list got done up to become the new smart venue. The Plough was the last.

[chichirara]

We moved in the week Sainsburys opened so maybe it was me!

[SeanMacGabhann]

Shame no-one picked up on kford's knowing post

My hat off to you kford >:D<

[Keef]

Er, sorry I'm lost :-S

Anyway, I remember early 90's there was talk of moving things around a bit, and stretching Peckham up Lordship Lane. Shopkeepers were going mental about it!

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

As in 'your mum' methinks.

[Zebedee Tring]

It would be somewhat drastic to chew one's own foot off rather than live in Wanstead, unless one was heavily into self-mutilation. Have you been to Wanstead recently? I grew up near there and was pleasantly surprised to see how it had come on. Delightful High Street with shops on one side and largely open on the other side. Lots of pavement cafes and Epping Forest nearby. Numerous dodgy geezas around, several attending Snaresbrook Crown Court, but then there are loads of Sarf London villains in the vicinity of ED.

[Frisco]

"Have you been to Wanstead recently? I grew up near there and was pleasantly surprised to see how it had come on. Delightful High Street with shops on one side and largely open on the other side. Lots of pavement cafes and Epping Forest nearby. Numerous dodgy geezas around, several attending Snaresbrook Crown Court, but then there are loads of Sarf London villains in the vicinity of ED."

Yes I have been there recently, I was treated to lunch in one of the eateries you describe by a satisfied customer, and I do know it quite well anyway. I've never been as quite as aware of the Sarf London vilains in ED as I am of the Essex influence and brashness I've encountered in Wanstead. Anyway, it's down to personal preference. I can't stand the place and wouldn't live there for a big clock. It does have one thing that ED doesn't have though, the M11 link road running through the middle of it. ED is missing out on that.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I've been to Wanstead a couple of times - lived near Ilford for 4 years and more recently had a friend who lived there

By day it's reasonably "nice" and that but - and I don't want to just characterise it as an Essex thing, that would be stereotyping - but if people find LL lairy on a Sat night then they have seen nothing. The bars in the evening are like one big stag/hen do

Oh - AND the bars I've been do have loo attendants - the ones with aftershave and a pound coin tip jar. In Wanstead????!!!

[Administrator]

Please keep this discussion about East Dulwich

[Zebedee Tring]

And Wanstead does have the Underground going straight to the City and West End (from both Wanstead and Snaresbrook Stations), which ED doesn't, and won't, have. I seem to remember that at one time it was planned that the E London Line would go through ED, but this was later changed to Denmark Hill.

[Frisco]

"I seem to remember that at one time it was planned that the E London Line would go through ED, but this was later changed to Denmark Hill."

In an early plan, the East London Line extension was to terminate at ED, with a siding on the land attached to the builders' merchant next to the station. I don't mind at all not having the Central or Jubilee Lines here.

[Cassius]

I moved to East Dulwich in the mid '80's and there were definitely no trains on Sundays - can't remember when they restarted.

The 40 didn't go up LL but went to Brockley (I think).

[Frisco]

"can't remember when they restarted."

If I had to guess, I'd say about 1995, although it could have been one or two years either side of that. It didn't register because I'd been put off train travel by then in the immediate pre-privatisation chaos and disrepair.

[Keef]

Frisco Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've never been as quite as aware of the Sarf London vilains in ED as I am of the Essex influence and brashness I've encountered in Wanstead.

Except in stab&wine, 3am Sunday mornings ;-)

[EDOldie]

I thought the East London Line extension was going to carry on through ED to Wimbledon when it was originally planned. Also thought it still could happen in the future if they can get the funding.. For me the proper regeneration of the area started with Nico Ladenis in the very late '70's or early '80's. He showed that there was an appetite (no pun intended) for an upmarket restaurant in, what was, a fairly downmarket area. I think after he went other people saw the potential and started to move in.

[Frisco]

"I thought the East London Line extension was going to carry on through ED to Wimbledon when it was originally planned."

No, the original (quite limited) plan was for the East London Line to terminate at ED. There were printed plans showing this, and they were issued at a public meeting about transport improvement options for Southwark in the mid-1990s. This was around the first time that the tramlink from Euston to Peckham was conceived, and there was a meeting held in Camberwell (I believe somewhere near St Giles Church, although I can't recall exactly where). However, I do recall giving the councillor who was chair of regeneration at the time a lift home to his home in Playfield Cresent, via Springers wine bar (I knew him you see).

The proposed extension to Wimbledon came later, as did Ken's plan to take the line to Clapham Junction via Denmark Hill. ED lost out quite early in the development plans, but it did feature quite significantly at the beginning. So, no ELL station at ED, and no extension to the tramlink either, but still Peckham feels it's neglected.

"Also thought it still could happen in the future if they can get the funding."

I don't disagree, and I don't think I suggested it couldn't.

"For me the proper regeneration of the area started with Nico Ladenis in the very late '70's or early '80's."

I thought you were going to say it started with the laying of the tramlines on Dog Kennel Hill. ;-P

"He showed that there was an appetite (no pun intended) for an upmarket restaurant in, what was, a fairly downmarket area. I think after he went other people saw the potential and started to move in."

I think he was just following a trend at that time to open very popular restaurants in non-exclusive areas (even downmarket at the time), such as Clapham, Battersea, Victoria, Notting Hill, Maida Vale, etc. etc. Some areas worked, while others didn't work for sometime, if at all. However, not everyone managed the fast-track to Mayfair.

[macroban]

The original plan was for the East London, City & Peckham Railway to terminate with a station in East Dulwich Road. Next station North would have been Sternhall Lane.

[Frisco]

"The original plan was for the East London, City & Peckham Railway to terminate with a station in East Dulwich Road. Next station North would have been Sternhall Lane."

Pre or post-Beeching Plan? Pre or post-WW1?

[mamafeelgood]

it's people moving across from brixton and surrounding areas who wanted to bring up their kids in a victorian house in a nice neighbourhood (nowt wrong with that.) so i go with demographics, the shops and estate agents just follow.

the irony is that ED is now far more expensive than brixton.

[macroban]

> Pre or post-WW1?

Plans cancelled in 1902.

Happy to educate.

[Frisco]

"Plans cancelled in 1902."

So, what has that, an 'original' Victorian* plan that never happened (not even any tracks laid), got to do with the recent (over the last 20 year period) regeneration of ED and its shopping centre? I sensed you'd were determined to go back as far as the coming of the trams to ED. Which shops that opened on LL in 1902 are you going to suggest started ED's regeneration? How did the opening and closure of LL Station affect it? Clearly, we need to know for the situation on 2007 to make sense.

"Happy to educate."

And I'm happy to be educated, but in the right context and by genuine educators, who wouldn't to do so in such an obviously anal, irrelevant, nerdish and point-scoring way.

*Yes, I know it was cancelled during Edward VII's reign.

[Cuthbert Dibble]

I reckon Frisco and macroban are in fact the same (slightly odd) person.

[Frisco]

"I reckon Frisco and macroban are in fact the same (slightly odd) person."

Nothing odder than being called Cuthbert Dibble, is there? No, not the same person, I don't believe I have OCD.

Btw, have you contributed to theories and discussions about the regeneration of ED, or very much else come to that?

[dc]

Frisco's correct re the earlier East London Line plans:

Hansard: 27 March 1990 (Column 222)

Secretary of State for Transport (Cecil Parkinson): "LRT (London Regional Transport as was) is appraising the extensions of the Docklands light railway to Lewisham and of the east London line northwards to Dalston and Highbury and southward to east (sic) Dulwich."

Raised as an option in 1989 and dropped soon after the extract above - later on in 1990 I believe. I imagine Estate Agents still managed to seal a few sales on the back of the plans though - even in that narrow window of opportunity.