Scotland - Independence Referundum

[Marmora Man]

If reports are true only a single yes / no question will be posed in 2014, rather than include the "Devo Max" option as a second question. However, the trade off appears to be that for this referendum only 16 & 17 year olds, whose names are on the electoral roll, will be allowed to vote.

Is giving 16 & 17 year olds a vote a good idea?

Personally I would say no - they are far more likely to make an emotional rather than balanced judgement. This might suit Alec Salmond as the emotional appeal of independence is high. However, I don't believe it will be good for Scotland as I believe independence to be bad for Scotland and bad for UK.

[katie1997]

concur entirely with everything you say above.

Much as I dislike him and what he stands for, I think Alex Salmond is a clever operator and the votes for 16+17 year olds plays straight into his hands.

[Ted Max]

A referendum where only 16 and 17 year olds are allowed to vote? Sounds like a plan!

"they are far more likely to make an emotional rather than balanced judgement"

Don't agree. They will vote for what they perceive to be in their best interests, just like everyone else.

[steveo]

I deeply resent contributing to their free care home system while paying eye watering charges for my own dear parent as well

[Ted Max]

What's free in Scotland, Steve, is personal care - a non-means tested c?170 pounds per week. Plus another ?70 odd nursing care if it's required.

If you're in a care home you still pay accommodation and living costs - which are considerably more. If you have 22k capital you must pay all food and accommodation elements of a care home (you'll be selling your house). If you have 13-22k capital you contribute to costs, leaving you a minimum weekly living allowance of ?21.90! If you have less than 13k capital then the state pays.

And if you get the personal care allowance you lose the right to attendance allowance and any care element within disability living allowance.

I know this doesn't help your personal situation at all, but there is an impression that all elderly care in Scotland is all free. It's really not, although the personal care element, being non-means tested and universal is more generous than the English situation.

Whether you contribute to it or not is something that better brains than ours have been debating for decades!

[*Bob*]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> that for this referendum only 16 & 17 year olds,

> whose names are on the electoral roll, will be

> allowed to vote.

For a second there, I thought..

[maxxi]

Once 16 year olds have been allowed to vote on the referendum I presume Mr Salmond would not then take away that vote and that, as a consequence, the voting age in Scotland would fall to 16 on a permanent basis?

What would be the point of a 16yr old voting for independence and the SNP only to see another party voted in the following year with them unable to vote? Once they are part of the process you can't exclude them again and once a precedent has been set 16-17yr olds must have a vote whenever the rest of the population does, no?

And as this is decided/allowed by the UK government when these 16-17 year olds are still citizens of the UK then I presume people of the same age would be allowed to vote in the next (and all future) UK general election(s)?

[Brendan]

Next thing people will be suggesting that the uk should have a referendum to leave the eu.

[Ridgley]

I Don?t have a problem with Scottish independents if that is what the majority wants so long as it is total independent from England.

[Marmora Man]

Ridgley Wrote:

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> I Don?t have a problem with Scottish independents if that is what the majority wants so long as it is total independent from England.

I can understand this point of view - however, I believe the UK, as a whole, would be diminished if the 300 year partnership were to be completely dissolved. England, Scotland, Wales and, perhaps to a lesser degree, Northern Ireland make a coherent whole with a shared tradition. Separate them and each state becomes a smaller and less significant player on the world stage.

I could be persuaded that ceding Northern Ireland to Eire has a logical basis - as that would also make a coherent whole. However, historical tensions make this very unlikely.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

[Ridgley]

Hi agree with you completely MM on this but it for the Scottish people to decide on their own future regardless in what we think. But if they decide to go for total independence then that should mean total independence from England it really not fair for the British public to still be paying for it.

I hope it does not come to this I love the idea of different Celtic culture which is part of Britain as my grandfather is Scottish I have a sort of connection.

[maxxi]

I agree that the UK is better for all as a whole than for any as a constituent part but, given the short-sightedness/short term emotional arguments that are bound to be used, don't you think the vote will swing towards a yes even though it be motivated by a warped sense of nationalism?

After all, if English people were given a referendum now on whether to abandon ties with Scotland, Wales and/or NI, the vote might easily be a resounding yes even though, imo, it would be disastrous for all concerned.

No one is going to think straight over the next 18 months and we'll just have a protracted period of Cameron et al tip-toeing around trying not to upset Scots voters (to avoid pushing them into a yes vote) until the whole sorry business is concluded.

[Help-Ma-Boab]

700 year anniversary of Battle of Bannockburn in 2014. I can see the campaign posters now!

I'm not for Independace btw.

[El Pibe]

500th of Flodden Field next year ;-)

I too hope a no vote is cast, we're definitely greater than the sum of our parts.

I'd disagree with MM on the NI point, I reckon Irish union is an inevitability, albeit one a political generation (and end of Irish recession) away.

[Huguenot]

I was chatting with a young meeja lady in her late twenties who observed that she acquired all her 'news' through Facebook. A newspaper or TV site wasn't in the portfolio.

These are the people who will be deciding the economic and political future of the nation if you put independence to a referendum. Considered insight, consequences, or whether it's a good or bad idea won't really come into the equation.

I share with EP the view that Irish union is inevitable, but it'll only take place when it becomes an irrelevance.

[MrBen]

You might not know it but there us a big debate tonight in Glasgow... Salmond versus Darling.

Criminal that they are not showing it outside scotland but you can watch it on the STV online player now?.

As politicians go?I've been up close to Darling and despite not being a massive Labour fan he's got integrity and is one of the best operators I've seen on his feet. Currently destroying Salmond against the odds.

[numbers]

I didn't realise it could be seen online via STV player*

Totally agree with you that its shoddy they aren't showing it outside of Scotland, especially due to the fact that no matter the outcome, there will be ramifications for the whole of the UK.

Have also dealt with Darling up close in the past and found him to be an impressive speaker. This thread makes me realise how much MM is missed, along with some intelligent debate. (Not from me, I hasten to add).

*mainly due to not knowing about STV player's existence!

[StraferJack]

Without in any way wishing to put darling down, every argument against independence could be presented to any other country, in history which strove for independence at some point, couldn't it?

It all boils down to "it's risky, what's plan b, and you the leader, are a bit shifty"

Which might all be true but so what? Many Irish voted against independence for similar reasons a hundred odd years ago but not many Irish would rekindle that particular relationship

[Help-Ma-Boab]

I can't see it on STV player. Stream down. They are getting pelters for it on Twitter...

[Loz]

numbers Wrote:

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> *mainly due to not knowing about STV player's existence!

I always use STV player instead of ITV player as it doesn't have ads. And the ads on ITV player are *really* annoying.

[MrBen]

The STV feed is erratic because 1M Scots living outside of Scotland are hitting those servers hard because some fuckwit chose not to show it in England or wales at all. Major oversight.

[StraferJack]

Given that itv have a dozen extra channels it would seem to be deliberate rather than oversight

Bad bad decision either way

[ratty]

Grant independence.

Invade

Enslave

Solve economical problems for next hundred years (apart from Buckfast abbey going bust)

[maxxi]

The aspect of the debate that I've found less and less appealing is the "How am I better off" pov.

Those who say they will vote to stay in a union ONLY if the bribes/incentives are big enough and, even then, if they don't get everything they demand now and in the future they may force another vote 10 years down the line. Like a spouse constantly threatening to leave if their partner doesn't give in on everything.

I am tending to think - of them - fuck you, and no, when you've gone you can't still use the car.

[TheArtfulDogger]

I hope they vote yes, then we can round up all the bagpipe players in London (and the rest of the remaining union) and deport them north of the new Hadrian's Wall security barrier

The security barrier will also need to be manned 24x7 so that will solve employment issues in the north of England.

Finally, if Scots need a special visa to come to work or live in England then we can refuse them entry and reduce the strain on housing stock in London and the south east

Dear Alex will solve all the worlds ills if he gets the yes vote :-)

However I personally think we will be better together (despite bag pipe players)