Beer Prices in East Dulwich (Lounged)

[Jeremy]

That could explain where I've been going wrong.

Mockney, on the other hand, appears to be the world's leading (and perhaps only) authority.

[Brendan]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> There are a couple of Sam Smiths pubs not a

> million miles away. One in Rotherhithe, one in

> Bermondsey and one in Anerley. They're cheap as

> chips!

>

> My post-ED-drinks-addled memory tells me that

> Oriwisu Spot was damned cheap too.

There is one on the river in wapping which is good. Just a quick trip up in the East London Line (or has this been closed already?)

Oh and Jeremy Oriwisu Spot is a fictional pub in a pretend place called Camberwell. Mockney dreamt it one night when after imbibing too freely at the Dog he fell asleep embracing a tomb stone in the village cemetery. The tomb stone belonged to one Sir Albert Farra Oriwisu, local dalmatian breeder and dancer most famous for his adaptation of the polka to ballroom which he performed at the great exhibition in 1851.

[Keef]

Lozzy hit the nail on the head earlier. However, ?3.80 is just another reason for me to avoid The Bishop... Like I need another reason.

[HonaloochieB]

Keef Wrote:

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> Lozzy hit the nail on the head earlier. However,

> ?3.80 is just another reason for me to avoid The

> Bishop... Like I need another reason.

Now steady on Keef.

Excoriate the EDT, criticise the Crystal Palace and malign the Magdala if you will.

But don't bash the Bishop.

[Brendan]

Nah, bollocks to the Bishop. In fact you can defame the Dog, patronise the Plough and call the Castle crap but for gods? sake don?t venerate the Vale.

[HonaloochieB]

Agreed Brendan.

I'll spend my time hating the Herne Tavern, loathing Licorish and upbraiding the Upland.

[Brendan]

Doh! I just realised that ?patronise the Plough? is a double entendre.

[Jeremy]

As is "bash the bishop".

[Jah Lush]

Can I drum up some support for the Drum? ?3.50 for a pint of Pironi.

[scor46]

Check this out:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/2008/02/20/price-of-a-pint-of-beer-is-set-to-break-the-4-barrier-89520-20325121/

[scor46]

When you have finished reading and listening to the propaganda that is being spouted out about pub industry. I'm going to tell you the real reason why a pint generally is well over ?3....

But not now ive gotta do some work....

[KalamityKel]

Who reads AND believes the Mirror? :-|

[HonaloochieB]

Jah Lush Wrote:

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> Can I drum up some support for the Drum? ?3.50 for

> a pint of Pironi.

OK JL, let's start 'dissing' the Drum as the young offenders who are about to invade our hallowed turf would no doubt say.

[macroban]

Today's trading statement by J.D.Wetherspoon suggests that its business model of 40/60 alcohol/food is falling apart. If a big boy has these difficulties, how much more difficult is it for the East Dulwich "gastros"?

When you have time, scor46....

[KalamityKel]

But is that not down the poor quality of goods in some of their outlets?

[scor46]

Ever wondered why you are paying over ?3 per pint in your local pub? Have you ever wondered why your local pub is always run down and in desperate need of a refurbishment and when it does have money spent on it just really is a general brush up. Have you noticed how many pubs have closed down or been boarded up, for sale or have already been turned into residential apartments.

Two property companies own more than half of the pubs in this Country. Enterprise Inns & Punch Taverns, they are known in the industry as pubcos. Out of 57,000 pubs in the land nearly 20,000 are owned lock stock and barrel by just the two of them. The pubcos lease their pubs to the publicans and charge them a rent. The tenant is also legally bound to buy all beers, bottle or draught, direct from the pubco. This is called a tied lease agreement. 31,000 pubs in the country have this lease or tenancy agreement in place today. They cannot buy from any other supplier other than landlord if they do so they will be liable for huge fines or worse still, prison sentences.

In essence the pubco's business model is simple. It rents a pub to a tenant. The lease has a full-repairing and full-insuring obligation on the tenant and it also generally has an upward only rent review stipulation. All Beers must be purchased from the pubco or from suppliers nominated by the pubco.

The pubco is not a brewery and never sees a keg or a bottle of beer. The pubco does not own storage areas or warehouses as they act only as a middleman. The pubco buys beer cheaply, indeed near to cost. It then sells it to tenants at prices, which generate a very handsome margin for them. Essentially the whole process in done by just swapping invoices with the brewers. Pubcos pay far less than the open market price for the beer due to their purchasing power, which means they can attract bulk-buying discounts

For the pubco this is a very effective and low risk business model. It is in a position of bargaining strength with both its suppliers and its customers. Cash generation is both strong and stable for the pubco, whilst risk is minimised. The two biggest pubcos entered the FTSE 100 less than 8years after being formed.

So what?s really going on in your pub and how does it affect you? Plain and simply, the Great British Pub is selling beer at a loss. Even a ?3 plus a pint. Your local, your community pub even your high street pub is hanging on by a thread and is only just managing to keep the doors open because of the price they pay the pubco for their beer. Many have already been swallowed up by the illicit practices of the pubcos. Law does not govern the price the pubcos charge their tenants for beer so they can charge whatever price they want. For example; you can visit your local supermarket and pay one third of the price for a case of beer than the local pub pays their landlord for the same product. I buy beer in my pub from my pubco at about the same price that JD Wetherspoons sell it over the bar to it's customers.

Almost 1300 pubs have closed down since 1st January 2008. That?s at least 1300 people who have lost their livelihoods, all of their savings and probably their homes as well. Bankrupt, embarrassed, sick with worry and absolutely flattened by the pubcos aggressive practices. Suicides, marriage break ups and nervous breakdowns are commonplace amongst publicans who eventually just give up the ghost. Yes its true turnover has decreased in pubs by almost 10% because of the smoking ban but this has only added to the problem it?s not the real cause. Pubcos, because of their greed have totally desecrated the whole pub Industry. They have hid behind walls of lies and deceit to the extent that many thousands of tenants have fallen by the wayside. At the heart of the problem there is romantic notion that if you buy a pub you can make a healthy profit. People take early retirement, use their redundancy money, borrow from the banks or use their life savings to buy a pub. In a very short space of time, they have lost the whole ?bloody? lot. Pubs dropping like flies, closing, shutting down, for sale or otherwise just empty and waiting for the inevitable. The average time a new tenant stays in any one pub is less than 15 months.

The predictions are that over 10,000 pubs will close or change hands this year alone.

And all the while the fat cats are getting fatter. One CEO of a pubco paid himself almost ?12million last year, the highest of any sector.

The pub down the road selling beer at less than ?2 per pint is not to blame. (JDWetherspoons) They are good examples of how a pub business should be operated. They buy beer at a discounted rate from the brewers then pass these discounts on to their customers by selling correctly priced beer.(No middleman to take all the profits) These pubs are run well, they have regular investment ploughed back into them, their customers are happy and the shareholders are still making healthy profits. It?s a win, win situation. No middlemen, no lies, no deceit and no ?tied? tenants falling off the ladder by the bucket load.

In 2004 the DTI Select committee opened up its doors and listened to both sides of the argument. Pubcos and tenants were invited to submit evidence challenging the ?tied? beer system in this Country. It was a massacre, a whitewash the real extent of the problem was hidden behind a mixed bag of lies, pontificating and a whole load of overpaid solicitors who?s only brief was to hide or disguise the true facts. Yes, the committee made recommendations, and they acknowledged that unless the pubcos changed their practices then they would look at the whole ?model? again. Four years later and guess what, absolutely nothing has changed. The pubcos have systematically ignored every recommendation that the select committee made. They have got bigger and stronger to the total detriment of the industry.

The pub trade is at an all time low, its finally hit rock bottom. Look around, see the pubs that are closed. In London it doesn?t seem that bad but venture out to rural areas and visit the pub that once was the corner stone of the community. You can?t because its not there anymore. Closed, forgotten, shut down. The very building that brought together generations of people, friends and families has finally disappeared. And remember the publican? That much loved pillar of society. That respected jovial bar owner who never turned his back on anyone especially a soul in need. That very person that scores of people would visit for advice, help or just a shoulder to cry on. Well he?s disappeared as well a beaten and broken man.

The Industry is at deaths door, the publicans know it, the Government knows it and the pubcos know it. All we the tenants want is a fairer deal. Why can?t the Great British pub be returned to their rightful owners? Why can?t it be handed back to the people who care about it and don?t just want to rape it of every last penny? I care and I want to make a difference. I?ve worked in this Industry for over 25 years and have seen the highs and lows. I?ve seen people who haven?t quite cut the mustard fall away, and I?ve seen people who have worked dam hard because they care, earn a decent honest living out of pubs. Now all I see is a one sided cartel monopolise the whole fabric of the pub system just to inflate their own share price and fill their pockets. The games up its time to make a change, I for one have had enough, its time to fight back.

Without the pubcos, the middleman, you would be paying a dam sight less than ?3 per pint.

If you have read and understand exactly what has happened to the pub Industry then what can you do?

Start by acknowledging the problem. It would be good if you, the average perso understood the total disparity of the ?tied? pub system. We, the publicans, need support and we can have that by more and more people understanding what has happened to the pub in the past 20 years.

Send me an email just to say that you understand. Even if you don?t agree then email me and tell me why. If you want to know more then email me.

If you agree with me you could sign following petition:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Pubcos/

We want the Government, OFT or the select committee to once again look at the pubco model. We need names of people who understand and care about their pub to sign it. If the Government decides to bring the whole ?tied? pub model back to the debating table because public demand warrants it, then at least this time the public will have a much better understanding of the situation.

I can?t promise anything, I can?t promise that we will win, I can?t promise that the pubcos will be knocked out of their ivory towers. But I ?can? promise you one thing, and I say this for every tenant who has lost their livelihood to the pubco bullies, feudal landlords who for too long now have just played the numbers game. For every tenant who is sitting here today on the brink of a total nervous breakdown I promise you this:

We will be ready next time!!

Want to know more? Then drop me an email

Steve Corbett

[email protected]

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Fabulous piece, Steve.

[Mark Dodds]

Wheyhey

Good post Steve, the closest I've ever seen to a perfect summation of the nonsense that is Pubs in England. To add to this a little InnSight from my own experience:

Did you ever wonder what a 'Free House' is? Well, now you've read Steve's post, put two and two together and you'll get to this: A Free House is NOT Tied. A Free House can buy beer from whoever they want - whatever beer they choose, and negotiate prices with the supplier; and get support from the supplier; free stock, marketing and promotional material, loans, business support, training, all sorts of stuff. When you're tied none of the above applies; you pay much more for your beer, you have a limited choice (at least in my PubCo case (my place is The Sun and Doves in Camberwell)) and have to fight extremely aggressive rent reviews every five years. Typically they go for trying to double or more the rent you're paying - that's happened twice to me.

For anyone interested there are two edifying threads on the Morning Advertiser (an important industry publication, the other being The Publican) website which show the depth of feeling that pub lessees have about this major issue that affects us all, punters and publicans alike: HERE and HERE. You will be interested to know there's a chap called Wayne Massey there who's going out of business right now. And several others who've been in the trade only a short time who are experienceing major financial difficulties because if the circumstances Steve outlines above.

[mockney piers]

Fascinating posts chaps.

How on earth has the situation been allowed to come about. Shouldn't the monopolies and mergers had something to say. And if, as it sounds, the pubcos are running a cartel, how the hell have they not been brought before the courts for this?

All sounds jolly unfair, hats off to you for hanging in there.

[????]

It's the MMC who inadvertently created this situation in the first place in 1989 by breaking the big Breweries power this led to the development of the pub cos and the demise of the main british brewing giants. They just created another giant and less choice....good old government intervention works its magic once more

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Steve I signed the petition, but you should do a facebook 'causes' thing using your piece above and send it to everyone.. I know a lot of Green Party people and will put a motion to the Green Party Autumn conference to try to get some publicity if you like. You would have to give me a hand with the specifics of what you want to change. It's really disgusting that this has been allowed to go so far and nothing has been done about it. I know other small licencees who have had licences refused by the council because they didn't fit with the council and developer's notion of 'development' so even if you do get your own un-tied premises, you are still vulnerable.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

I'll see if I can get this on facebook myself. I'll post a link if I get it sorted!

Edit - couldn't manage the causes bit so sent it as a superwall post to everyone I know,

[lozzyloz]

scor46 and Mark make some very valid points about the state of the industry and the greed of the pubco's however, in my limited experience of the industry this is only part of the story. I've seen another side. There are many successful pubs despite the margin erosion and many people who bought into the business through some romantic notion without any idea of the business acumen needed and the level of commitment required to make the business a success. It's not for the faint hearted! If you run a pub/bar you need a whole host of skills these days including good commercial judgement, management and hr skills, creativity and vision. Add to that a bit of plumbing, electrical and IT knowledge. I've seen owners throw profits down the drain by not stock taking, a lack of systems, poor or no staff training, a lack of understanding of their market and the creation of a viable offering, too much hands of management and little or no interaction with customers.

Getting back to the pubcos and breweries, beware of the branded pint glass. They don't want you to know this and I've managed to win compensation from a pubco by proving a case. Many of the glasses are designed to be overfilled. This costs a medium sized pub the equivalent of approx a barrel per week but a nice little earner for the pubco. I've also seen owners borrow against future sales from the pubcos and get crucified when they go out of business because the pubco will try and recover interest plus lost barrel sales.

The other scam besides the pubco is BSKYB. They charge a ridiculous amount of money for sports.

*edited for spelling

[scor46]

Pardon my naivete

I know for a pub...

It sits in a hamlet off the beaten track, two miles from the nearest sizeable settlement which in turn is ten miles from anywhere that might reasonably be described as civilisation.

The public bar is rumoured to have a pool table and a jukebox, but I don't know of anyone who's ventured in that side since God was a boy.

The lounge is dark and dingy, there's little choice of beer. Wadworth's 6X, Stella (from a can) or Natch cider (from a bottle). There'll be a house red if the landlord hasn't already drunk it. Any of these will likely be served in glassware that would benefit from a second pass through the glass washer if indeed they have one.

They do not sell food.

There is no jukebox, fruit machine, television or anything to suggest that the room has been altered in 100 years. There is a patina that could only have been created by so many smokers over that period of time.

It is quiet enough at lunchtime, maybe two or three folk will be in and occasionally the landlord will add his wisdom as he opens his second bottle of wine (he is educated, ancient and autocratic).

He opens at 7.30 in the evening and often as not the place is packed. Some folk will put their wellies on and walk 2 miles across open fields and a golf course, braving windy, wet November weather to get there.

Why does this place work?

Is it because people have to talk to each other for amusement because there are no distractions such as a telly?

Or is it because he has something that one rarely sees these days: an open log fire that burns at all hours in all seasons and weathers?

Surely it's not because his "watch stops working" now and then?

Irene Bujman 8th March 2008

[Mark Dodds]

Lozzyloz you're spot on too - you clearly know your stuff. If you're in the trade perhaps you might like to get together with Steve and me and bring an end to the whole thing. David V Goliath you know. We need as much solid evidence of interesting practice on the part of PubCo's as possible.

We already have a FACEBOOK CAUSE Pub Landlords v the Giant PubCo's with just over 200 people on it. WE have some very interesting things going on behind the scenes too.

And it gets even more complicated as everything in the PubCo business is all about volume - the more volume they shift in publicans' direction the better, whether it's sold or just goes down the drain, because the rent they want is calculated to be 50% of the net profit of a pub after office overheads are taken into account. So if glasses make it easy to over pour what matter? The publican pays for it.

When calculating projected profit & loss projections for pubs the PubCos already know what true current barrelage is - because they've sold that beer to the pub through the tie and usually they will have flow meters on the dispense equipment in the cellar to make sure that every pint is recorded just in case beer is being bought out of tie. In their projections they always assume that a pub's volume of beer sales will go up year on year - even when the market is proven to be shrinking - and the PubCos never include Ullage (beer that is spilt, spoiled or lost through changing barrels and line cleaning), the gas needed to pump that beer to the bar, in their projected income calculations because all that would reduce the projected profitability of the 'unit'.

Another unspoken thing in the background about pint measures is Yield, Pub Companies expect people who pour beer for a living to get a 105% yield from a pint. This means if they sell me a barrel (36 gallons) of beer they would expect me to actually earn more than a barrel's worth of cash out of that barrel by underserving through a combination of the head making up the volume and just selling less than a pint every time a glass is put under the tap.