Woman stabbed in Peckham last night (Lounged)

[Ant]

I'd be interested to know where those figures came from. (Not that I want to cast any doubt on them. I'd just be interested to know.)

[mockney piers]

I imagine the Baghdad stats for 2005 were pretty scary too.

[NatashaD]

I am inclined to agree with Asset's point 'As someone else pointed out it is 'per capita' statistics that matter not just the numbers.'

However, nobody has addressed my earlier point about why these kinds of crimes, stabbings/murders, are more prevalent in Peckham. Well.....there is a higher number of young black fatherless males there with an alternative 'culture' which came to this country from the West Indies: 'street culture', feckless fathers, violent rap, a nihilistic brutalism which has no past - or future - but festers in the present. We should recall, however, that Damilola Taylor was just as much its victim as Tom ap Rhys Price.

Challenging that culture is not racist, and it would possibly make places like Peckham safer for everyone.

I believe that last year, Tony Blair said something along the lines of the violence is not going to be stopped by "pretending it is not young black kids doing it".

[will dex]

i work in sevenoaks - -we had a shooting here just last year actually. ED areas o.k.

[MadWorld74]

Don't start compairing Baghdad with Peckham for Gods sake... no matter how 'ironic' you thing your being!

Well said NatashaD.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Nice way to uphold your maxim of free speech and free thought mad world

Natasha. . Just so we are clear you think this is because people are black? And that if we check those other more violent european cities we will find its black people there? Is that what you are saying? You are definitely not saying that the problem may be one of. . . Say poverty?

[muffintop]

NatashaD Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> stabbings/murders, are more prevalent in Peckham.

> Well.....there is a higher number of young black

> fatherless males there with an alternative

> 'culture' which came to this country from the West

> Indies: 'street culture', feckless fathers,

> violent rap, a nihilistic brutalism which has no

> past - or future - but festers in the present. We

> should recall, however, that Damilola Taylor was

> just as much its victim as Tom ap Rhys Price.

>

> Challenging that culture is not racist, and it

> would possibly make places like Peckham safer for

> everyone.

>

> I believe that last year, Tony Blair said

> something along the lines of the violence is not

> going to be stopped by "pretending it is not young

> black kids doing it".

Excuse me, but my grandfather who came to this country from the West Indies in the 50's, is absolutely appalled at the behaviour of the youth, and not just black youths, of this country youths as a whole. The lack of respect, discipline, I think he would argue about the origins of it though as you appear to be saying that it was brought over by immigrants of the West Indies when they came over to England. When he was young, corporal punishment was prevalent at school as well as getting a whupping from your parents/and sometimes grandparents too if you did not do well, or were rude at school, you cannot blame immigrants of the past for bringing bad behaviour into this country. There are just as many errant white fathers as there are black ones, please do your homework before you come onto the forum spouting unsubstantiated twaddle.

I would say that the majority of gangsta rap etc. shootings, drive bys etc. have been encouraged by what is going on in the USA and our youths ever wishing desire to emulate all that is American or think that whatever is cool over there is actually cool, when it is most definitely not.

[Brendan]

Say what you may about different cultures if people have a decent standard of living, living conditions that afford some human dignity and a feeling that they have opportunities to do something with their lives they tend to not kill each other so much.

Not that we should discount cultural differences or pretend they don?t exists. It is just that they aren?t as important as a decent house, a bit of money in the bank and a feeling that your life means something.

[Rico]

Saw this over on the SE5 blog about crime stats. If true, shows Peckham rates better than ED!

1 East Walworth 23.8 (-4.3%)

2 Herne Hill 21.7 (+8.9%)

3 Camberwell Green 18.6 (+15%)

4 Oval 17.9 (+11.5%)

5 Brunswick Park 16.7 (+2.2%)

6 Newington (Elephant-ish) 13.8 (+18%)

7 East Dulwich (shock) 13.6 (-3.9%)

8 Tie: Coldharbour 12.9 (+10.1%)

- Tie: Faraday (West Camberwell) 12.9 (-4.7%)

10 Peckham 11.3 (+16.2%)

11 South Camberwell 11.2 (-10.6%)

12 Kennington 10.7 (+0.8%)

13 Vassal (Myatts Field-ish) 10.1 (-26.1%)

[NatashaD]

Sean, I alluded to the fact that cultural factors are to blame. They are not the only factor, and nor is poverty a sole reason for why stabbings and murders occur. If it were, there would be stabbings galore in impoverished parts of the UK. There, do, however, seem to be a thing which is happening in London more than in other climes in the UK.

muffin top "There are just as many errant white fathers as there are black ones, please do your homework before you come onto the forum spouting unsubstantiated twaddle." I have checked my facts, "57% of black Caribbean children grow up in lone parent households in the UK, compared with 25% of white children."

Furthermore, "Community worker Reverend Les Isaacs told the Commons home affairs committee there was a "very high proportion of absent fathers" in the black community.

This was having an "enormous impact" on boys and young men, he added.

London mayor Ken Livingstone's former equality adviser, Lee Jasper, said the crime rate was "toweringly disproportionate" within the black community.

[NatashaD]

One answer is to return real discipline and respect to schools, to police and to communities - and to change the culture these youths live in, to raise them with very different values and ethics, and accept that these things come at a price of harder expectations than is currently fashionable.

Immediately after both wars in the last century thousands of widows raised boys alone without them attacking each other with knives in the streets. Why? They wouldn't have dared, and they would have thought it was wrong.

[muffintop]

Dyu know what, I can't even begin to be arsed addressing the many issues going on with certain members of the forum, be it about Rye Lane, Peckham itself or black people in general, there has been a lot said over the past week or so in relation to these topics, people there is bad everywhere, in all walks of life etc. why some people focus solely on Peckham or its people is beyond me, I've had enough to be honest and will refrain from taking part in discussions of this kind because some people are just never going to get it.

Lets really put the cat amongst the pigeons now and bring up the topic of massively increased numbers of sexual abuse by paedophiles on young children in this very same area. Guess what? Doesn't involve black people so you won't have heard very much about it! Oh, I'm sorry, did I insinuate that 85% of paedophiles are white, or did I get that from the same kind of stats the some of the thread posters on this site get their stats from.

[muffintop]

......

[NatashaD]

I am sure you're right about the paedophile thing muffintop. However, you rather tartly asserted I should check my facts regarding absent black fathers in the UK - which I had already done.

You don't seem to like the fact that I backed up my point. You should actually retract your erroneous point: " There are just as many errant white fathers as there are black ones, please do your homework before you come onto the forum spouting unsubstantiated twaddle." You are wrong, not me.

[Rico]

Isn't the issue poverty and the colours secondary (thought related)?

[ratty]

Do we even know the ethnicity of the victim / perps in this murder? Both victim and alleged perp in the Lee murder last month were whities I believe!

[pk]

muffintop Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Dyu know what, I can't even begin to be arsed

> addressing the many issues going on with certain

> members of the forum, be it about Rye Lane,

> Peckham itself or black people in general, there

> has been a lot said over the past week or so in

> relation to these topics, people there is bad

> everywhere, in all walks of life etc. why some

> people focus solely on Peckham or its people is

> beyond me, I've had enough to be honest and will

> refrain from taking part in discussions of this

> kind because some people are just never going to

> get it.

>

ditto

[NatashaD]

Er no Muffintop, I do not mean 'turn them white'. What a ridiculous thing to say. If I had wanted to say that I would have said that. How defensive you are. How do you know what colour I am?

This is not an issue about race: it is about the presence of fathers. Cohabiting parents do just as well as married ones, provided they stick together. The concern about single-parent families centres on the depressing association between being raised without a father and ending up as a criminal. That association is statistical, like the association between smoking and cancer: while not everyone who smokes will die of cancer, no one in their right mind would advocate smoking on the basis that some smokers don't die of a smoking-related disease.

[bignumber5]

Saw this over on the SE5 blog about crime stats. If true, shows Peckham rates better than ED!

The learned author of "Bravo Two Zero" tells of a childhood growing up in Peckham, in which they went to Dulwich Village to rob the rich people...

;-)

[Rico]

Ha! Hadn't thought of that. Poor Camberwell rates poorly. I'm on the line so will say E Dulwich, or maybe Peckham!

[muffintop]

Forgot that I'd said I was not taking part anymore, retracted final post on that basis only, am not retracting anything else, only 25% of white children brought up by a lone parent, slightly stretching the truth by any standards no matter where you get your "statistics" from, seriously, think about it, do.

[Louisa]

Asset I never said every other city in the world, I said the EU, and the statistics on Amsterdam are overall and do not take into account violent crime involving guns and knives specifically. As a national capital city London is much further ahead, my friend who works for Thames Valley has told me that most other forces now see London as the new Belfast in terms of gang related violence over the past decade, with many others choosing to transfer out of the met to go to safer regions. Things really have got that bad, and I shall get every statistic I can to prove this.

Louisa.

[Angusvanfrehley]

The depth to which this violent attitude is pervading our youth in particular

is very worrying.

I work in one of the new 'academys' - last week a year eight student pulled

a replica gun in the corridor and threatened some female students and cleaners.

Even on close inspection the thing appeared the real deal.

The school had to be pushed to report to police - bad PR apparently!

[ratty]

I was talking to a copper in lewisham the other day who is desparate to transfer out for precisely the reason Louisa states.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

The depth to which this violent attitude is pervading our youth in particular

is very worrying.

I work in one of the new 'academys' - last week a year eight student pulled

a replica gun in the corridor and threatened some female students and cleaners.

Even on close inspection the thing appeared the real deal.

The school had to be pushed to report to police - bad PR apparently!

Not just academies, a similar incident happened in Dulwich College a couple of years ago. Not reported to police for same reason and the punishment was double detention!