Problems with London Bridge trains - make your complaints known to Southern

[marigolds]

Yesterday and today, the 7.47 train to LB (N Dul time) ran with 4 rather than the usual 8 carriages. Yesterday (light snow, even in outlying areas)the usually accessible rear carriage was impossible to get in, despite the usual 'move down the carriage' shouts. There was no where to move to ! I gave up and went off in to Herne Hill to get the bus and was late for a teaching session that I'd left home in plenty of time for.

Today another 4 carriage train ran at this time. With head down and determination I managed to get on at N Dul. Looked like lots of people in E Dulwich weren't able to do so and would have had to wait another 20 minutes for the 8.10. The train was hideous with people packed in nose to nose and doors barely closing. At least we made it to London Bridge without the mysterious holding periods of up to 15 minutes, outside LB.

When we finally got through the gate on platform 15 (as i'm always in the rear carriage I don't know why we have to stand without moving, for a few minutes - I understand ebb and flow but it seems like a mighty long time before it suddenly flows (Anyway that's another post)... I spoke to one of those smartly-dressed office representatives from Southern sent down to deal with frustrated customers. She said that until another customer/'passenger' had complained just before me, she and her colleagues were unaware of the issues on this line over the last couple of days. She offered me the customer complaint leaflet. I took a few to give out when, inevitably, there is another delay, cancellation or shortened train. She shared that until recently staff on the ground were not aware of the 'fast running' trains to West Croydon ie.those scheduled trains that are listed on the departure board to stop enroute to E and N Dulwich but suddenly disappear from the board only for the inevitable announcement apologising that the train won't be stopping at our stations. She has brought that to her manager's attention. (management didn't know ??!! Of course they did).

So my point... Yes London Bridge is chaos and I am grateful that trains are still running there from N&E Dulwich but if there is only one train between 7.27 and 8.07 (N Dul times) it is unbelievable that Southern (or whoer their network agents are)would send a 4 carriage train on this very busy and much diminished line at 7.47. (The driver announced that this was the 'unit' he had been allocated at the depot). It is really stressful, hot and for those of us who are a little claustrophobic frankly unbearable. Only 4 people on that train stopped to complain. I can't believe we were the only ones to feel frustrated. If you haven't got time to stop at the station, email, telephone or use the passenger complaint leaflet to let Southern management know what it is like on our trains. Take some pictures to illustrate. They're not the ones struggling to stand up on these cattle trains. I'm not sure what the solution is but our line is certainly in need of some help.

I know that it is a massive infrastructure project but these problems need to be addressed even if it's just ensuring that we have our usual 8 carriage trains to prevent morning meltdown, commuters that is. This must be a health hazard for some people as it's so hard to move. I know we've all got train commute horror stories. Let's not stand and fume. Let's get writing, tweeting, emailing etc.

Rant over ! Let's see what added joy bus strike Thursday brings to our morning and evening commutes.

Marigolds

[Robert Poste's Child]

I'm afraid that after repeated complaints having absolutely no effect over the last couple of years of increasingly appalling service, some of us have given up. Complaining increases your stress and makes you even later for work, and eventually you realise they're never going to respond. The complaints process and the meet-the-perpetrator events are just placebos at best. Personally I feel they'd completely cynical and genuinely contemptuous of those who use the service.

[Earl Aelfheah]

We need the tube extended into SE London. The suburban train services are run for the benefit of high fare paying kent season ticket holders. At the first sign of disruption or delay its inner london services that get cut.

[Monkey]

The person to contact is

Angela Okello

Deputy Customer Service Manager

Southern & Gatwick Express

[email protected]

[Jeremy]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> We need the tube extended into SE London. The

> suburban train services are run for the benefit of

> high fare paying kent season ticket holders. At

> the first sign of disruption or delay its inner

> london services that get cut.

By the time it comes - if it comes - half of us will have retired. And the tube is certainly not coming to East Dulwich. So the pertinent issue is what can be done to improve national rail services.

[Robert Poste's Child]

I heard recently something like if they send a short train they don't have to include it in the stats on punctuality, so at the reporting level it makes the service look better. Does anyone know if that's true?

[Jeremy]

That probably means they don't have to report the fact that it's short. Not that they don't have to report the delay at all...

[Lowlander]

Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

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> I heard recently something like if they send a

> short train they don't have to include it in the

> stats on punctuality, so at the reporting level it

> makes the service look better. Does anyone know if

> that's true?

No, and a train is reported as cancelled if it misses any of its stops. http://www.networkrail.co.uk/about/performance/

You can find out all the stats here - they report under a fudged measure known as "PPM" which is for Southern 83%

The real measure you want is right time performance, i.e. within 59 seconds of arrival time - for Southern, it's 50.5% !

And they cancelled 4.6% of services.

Note these are network specific stats for the whole Southern network.

You can check past times here and find out which trains are most reliable http://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/

For instance the 07:50 from ED to London Bridge is 100% reliable whilst the 08:51 is 57% reliable

[Earl Aelfheah]

If we want to improve the inner London train service, it has to be done at the point that franchises are renewed / awarded. There is always a bun fight between inner London areas, which would like to see more frequency - and outer London / out of London commuters who want fast trains that don't make too many stops. The train operators themselves support the latter group, because that's were most of the money is. They comply with the minimum standards as mandated in their franchise agreements and no more. If there are short term decisions to be made about which of the two suffer as the result of delays and capacity problems, and where they have more 'wiggle room' invariably it is the inner London services that feel the pain.

If we want to change this, then we need as many sections of London rail as possible to be taken over by Transport for London / transferred to the overground network.

In the longer term, the best solution is to get a dedicated, high frequency, London focussed service (aka 'the tube).

[Earl Aelfheah]

... which we already pay for and are woefully under-represented on.

[Lowlander]

And Marigolds - I too get a morning train from North Dulwich (0747 or 0807) and have been lucky to get on one of the short formed trains recently.

The driver simply turns up at the depot and takes the train he's given - he has no input into what it is or how long it is - that is down to maintenance staff and operations managers, so likely that there's been a fault with the set and it's been taken out of service. The drivers have been very apologetic and communicative of late and it's not their fault.

Last night I was on the 1751 from London Bridge which, outside South Bermondsey, had to divert to New Cross Gate! Lots of confused passengers; I ended up on a crowded overground train to Forest Hill and then a bus back - over an hour late home...

This morning - normal length train and on time arrival at London Bridge for once!

[AGW3]

Complain? Waste of energy in my experience.

[Cedges]

I've just emailed this:

Ms Angela Okello,

Please can you explain why rather then catching the 12 minute train from East Dulwich to London Bridge twice daily, I now get on the number 40 bus twice a day for a 40-45 minute bus journey to and from the same destination.

I'm not going to re hash the issues, you know what they are - barely any timetabled trains - there used to be 6 an hour at peak times, cancelled trains, short trains when they do run, massive holding periods outside LB station, trains terminating early at SB.

They are all described perfectly in detail here.

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,1469468,1469468,page=1#msg-1469468

and here

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,1450284,page=1

I'll look forward to hearing your response.

And don't you even dare mention delay repay - has to be 30 minutes late - on a 12 minute trip, anything more than 2 minutes late and you are causing massive inconvenience. Its insulting and useless.

C Edges

Feel free to copy, pasts (amend if you wish/need) and send.

[StraferJack]

Hope the response is "I'm not going to rehash my answer - you know what the issues are:"

[lpool]

You may have a better response if you write to your local MP and ask them to submit a FOI to the DfT on the number of short formed services during peak time and a break down of reasons for each incident. Plus seek confirmation that the train operator is being held to account for its franchise obligations.

[Jeremy]

We all know that with the reduced capacity at London Bridge, the schedule is just too tight, and at the first sign of trouble everything falls into disarray. Really not sure there's much they can do in the short term - no matter how many strongly worded mails they receive. Perhaps the problem with the lack of information is something they could improve with sufficient incentive?

[James Barber]

The chaos was entirely avoidable if Network Rail had kept 9 terminating platforms and built 9 throguh platforms. Effectively shuffling the terminating ones along south to where platforms 17,18 and 19 used to be - http://jamesbarber.mycouncillor.org.uk/?p=417

The planning application should have been measured against a Southwark Plan that insists London Bridge redevelopment must result in more train services to Southwark stations. The planning committee rubber stamped the current dogs dinner which ignored this policy. (particularly annoying as I had ensured those words were present).

Sadly our planning committee is no longer critical of plans and rigourous. It used to review all the plans in detail. Now it's railroaded to whip through schemes pronto. It even appears to now vote en bloc along party lines.

And the enitrely avoidable chaos for so many results and will run until around 2018 - so London Bridge station can cope with twice as many long distance commuters.

I'm lucky I'm able to use a bicycle and must as I can no longer use train delays as an excuse for lateness with my employer.

[Cedges]

The thing that I don't understand is when the closed platforms 14/15/16 things went a bit haywire, not too bad but irritating.

When they opened up 14/15 and closed 12/13 things were actually really good - the service was actually decent.

Then on the august bank holiday when they reopened 12/13 and closed 10/11 things went hideous and reopening 10/11 and closing 8/9 has made things even worse.

Ignoring whats happening on the other side (the through platforms) - I don't see how thats affecting the terminating platforms, I don't understand what this apparent 'capacity' problem is. If services operated well at full timetable bewteen easter and august bank holiday last year with 2 platforms out and one remaining closed, how is this an issue?

[Michael Palaeologus]

Best be would be for the ED line to be taken over by TfL who is at least focussed on London needs and is answerable to the Mayor's office.

Making the line an Overground line would work in the same way that much of the North London Overground lines and branches have done.

Since the London Bridge debacle I have used the Overground more and more. It works.

[Jeremy]

Overground is not perfect... but it is better.

And the style of train (seats along outside, lots of standing room and things to hold onto) should be the norm for all London commuter trains where journey time is not expected to be much over 30 mins.

[Bic Basher]

Cedges Wrote:

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> The thing that I don't understand is when the

> closed platforms 14/15/16 things went a bit

> haywire, not too bad but irritating.

>

> When they opened up 14/15 and closed 12/13 things

> were actually really good - the service was

> actually decent.

>

> Then on the august bank holiday when they reopened

> 12/13 and closed 10/11 things went hideous and

> reopening 10/11 and closing 8/9 has made things

> even worse.

>

> Ignoring whats happening on the other side (the

> through platforms) - I don't see how thats

> affecting the terminating platforms, I don't

> understand what this apparent 'capacity' problem

> is. If services operated well at full timetable

> bewteen easter and august bank holiday last year

> with 2 platforms out and one remaining closed, how

> is this an issue?

The issue is to do with the approaching tracks into London Bridge, until Christmas there were 6 tracks into London Bridge at Bricklayers Arms. This was reduced to three as the other tracks are being demolished to construct a dive under as part of the Thameslink programme.

So trains coming from the Sydenham line and South Bermondsey all have to share the three approacing tracks into LB. This will increase to 4 in 2016.

[MrBen]

It's not good. But again, the best thing anyone can do is simply leave earlier and avoid peak hours if you can. The trains before 7.30am from ND have been mostly fine this year so far. Even getting one 20 mins earlier than your usual can make your day better.

And I avoid LB between 5.30 and 6.45 pm completely now. 5.15pm and 7pm shoulder periods much better also.

[Cedges]

Bic Basher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The issue is to do with the approaching tracks

> into London Bridge, until Christmas there were 6

> tracks into London Bridge at Bricklayers Arms.

> This was reduced to three as the other tracks are

> being demolished to construct a dive under as part

> of the Thameslink programme.

>

> So trains coming from the Sydenham line and South

> Bermondsey all have to share the three approacing

> tracks into LB. This will increase to 4 in 2016.

I seeeeeee, thanks. It really would be helpful if Southern could have communicated this - and I do read every London Bridge update going. Grrr.

So for half capacity we should be paying half fare right? Oh how i make myself laugh!

[Earl Aelfheah]

What annoys me is after years of delays and inconvenience all we get in this part of town is resumption of the service as it was 10 or so years ago (when passenger numbers were significantly lower). So effectively the reward for our patience is a real term cut in services. Perfect.

[Earl Aelfheah]

@James Barber - there is currently a huge development site around Camberwell Green (from Camberwell Road, through to Camberwell new road), covering several acres. There is also the recently developed Tesco site and the Walworth Bus Garage. Why did Southwark not work with TFL / the Mayors office to consolidate the site and sell it off as a single development site? They could then have made the provision of moneys for either a Thameslink station or Bakerloo line extension a condition of planning permission via a planning gain/section 106 order?