God Bless Maggie T

[bigbadwolf]

Private Eye = the last true bastion of British political satire that at some point along the road got deeply personal, wouldn't want it any other way.

[Marmora Man]

Rational debate would be a good idea on this subject - but I'm not sure it's possible. Most of this is from a post I made back in ?08 on the same subject and is re-posted because I'm feeling lazy, it's fun and for clarity.

Somehow Mrs Thatcher has become a totemic hate figure, based upon a caricature of her and her policies that is closer to the Spitting Image version of life. She was an outstanding politician who, by hard work and force of personality made it to the top of British politics, despite it being a male bastion, and wrought change - change that was sorely needed.

Gallinello ? at least you quoted the full sentence ? most don?t. "There is no such thing as society: there are individual men and women, and there are families" ? it came from a speech where she argued that providing solutions for "society" was not the way to go, society was an insufficiently defined term / concept on which to base policy.

There's a very interesting discussion to be had elsewhere about this subject - society is just a construct, one that reflects the prejudices, desires and concerns of the speaker using the term. Your view of society is not mine, nor the next person's. Therefore political policies should be shaped to allow individual men, women and families to make their on way in their lives and, where this is not possible, to support men, women and families when help is needed.

As for the alleged destruction of "the North", mining, industry, Northern Ireland and so on - check out Derek Hatton and his Trotskyite ideologues in Liverpool who felt that the first duty of public employees was to destroy the fabric of the community they were working in to engender political change. Or Red Robbo of British Leyland who held that the, nationalised, car industry existed to provide its workforce with high wages not its customers with reliable cars. Arthur Scargill - another ideologue who wanted to create political, revolutionary, change by the use of "workers power" - but who only succeeded in pricing miners out of work.

Those that were there may recall that it was pre-Thatcher that the British Army was deployed in Northern Ireland to protect the minority Catholic population. The IRA, a left wing grouping, managed (with the help of inept politicians of all stripes) to turn this positive act into a political cause - with subsequent 40 years of death and destruction. The Good Friday agreement was achieved by Blair?s government ? but built on initiatives set in place during the Thatcher era (Lord Whitelaw holding secret talks with Martin McGuinness ? which failed), then taken up again by John Major who handed over the process in ?97.

?The collective, co-operative spirit that had held since before WWII? is an illusion ? one it came into being during and after WWII, two it was never a consensus ? only an inertia and lack of energy in both government and industry, brought about mainly by paying off huge debts arising from WWII, a serious lack of investment and loss of a world role. The film ?I?m all right Jack? wasn?t so much a comedy / satire as a documentary.

The 60's, 70's and 80's were interesting, complicated, controversial times - despair was in the air, the brain drain and flight from Britain was evident. In comparison to today it was grey, good restaurants were few, pub food was dire, a new car would rust within 18 months, a new telephone took weeks to be installed, rail travel was lengthy, costly and boring, air flights were prohibitively expensive, industries were dying on their feet in the face of overseas competition. Major change was needed.

The simplistic bashing of Mrs Thatcher as the creator of all ills, who single handedly led a crusade against the working class and destroyed communities, industries and a way of life is just that - simplistic.

Give the woman a fair hearing - look at all sides of events she was involved in, check out the context of the times. She did her best in difficult times and succeeded in delivering change. I do not support, uncritically, all the changes that have occurred since her election in 1979 - and would acknowledge that, like many politicians she "lost it" after 10 years in power, but taken in the round Mrs Thatcher was a force for the good of Britain in difficult times. Not many politicians have been that in the last 100 years.

Remember - as Osgood said to Jack Lemmon's character in the great last line of "Some LIke It Hot" - "Well, nobody's perfect"

[bigbadwolf]

Deep breaths MM.

[PeckhamRose]

When she dies I hope that the Queen dies a day later and spoils her thunder.

I'm not a Royalist either, but the Queen does less harm (tho obviously the monarchy as a whole, might).

[Santerme]

Nicely put MM

[AllforNun]

i'd like to bless her with a brick.

[JetSetWilly]

pity it was,nt her fuckin neck she broke.

[Marmora Man]

JetSetWilly Wrote:

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> pity it was,nt her @#$%& neck she broke.

Good to see careful and deep analysis of Margaret Thatcher's legacy. Perhaps my earlier post on page 1 can stimulate a more rational response?

[macroban]

It is coming up to 19 years since Mrs Thatcher resigned.

I am not a betting woman but I suspect the inane responses here are from those who were not out of school when she resigned.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Bakers on Strike,Undertakers on strike,Dockers on strike,Printers always on strike,miners on strike,Council workers on strike, car workers on strike, GLC a fiasco....Maggie got it sorted...

[gallinello]

Too much sun, TLS. Relax, wipe the rabid flecks from your parched, cracked lips and reflect!

I just wish the progressive proletarian forces of the 70s and 80s had had a true defender of their class interests, like the ruling class possessed in dear, darling Margaret.

National assets sold off, using the revenue for North Sea oil and gas to fund ever-expanding dole queues, war over the Malvinas ( the wonderful,heroic episode of the Belgrano! ), intransigence over the political status of Irish Nationalist and Unionist prisoners of war - more bombings on the streets of London; hunger strikers; increasing electoral appeal of Sinn Fein, Cabinets groaning under the weight of aristocrats, multi-millionaires, criminal elements and psychos, Toxteth, Handsworth, Brixton up in flames. Brave, happy times.

Maggie got it sorted!

[EDOldie]

Tax, no ones mentioned tax. Or the right to buy, or her probably saving the health prospects of millions of children by getting rid of that ghastly (and very fatty) school milk. She wasn't all bad you know. None of them are perfect but at least she lived here. She can't have been that unpopular she was the longest serving post war PM until the Blair Witch Project.

ED Tory Oldie

[Santerme]

That terrible decision to sink the Belgrano and end the threat to our own ships, simply beastly.

Luckily Conqueror did not sink the escorting destroyers, although she would have to have chased them down as they fled the scene.

And the IRA

As I recall, in the July, with only four dead hunger strikers Richard O'Rawe, the IRA spokesman in the Maze, and Brendan "Bik" McFarlane, its commanding officer in the jail, withdrew a demand that the British government treat IRA inmates as prisoners of war.

As they were criminal scumbags, that was never going to happen anyway.

The Govt responded in writing with a concession that the prisoners could wear their own clothes as long as they were approved by the prison authorities.

O'Rawe and McFarlane agreed at the time that the British government's concessions were enough to end the strike but were told that the IRA council had rejected them.

The then Ulster Secretary James Prior finally agreed a package of concessions with the Maze prisoners three days after the hunger strikes ended.

Facts have a nasty way of getting in the way of perceived events.

[gallinello]

EDOldie, are you serious about the milk-snatcher business ? i believe you're being deliberately provocative. I loved that free, calcium and mineral packed milk, and so did millions of my little schoolmates, and their often hard-up parents ( it was the seventies, remember.)

And, as for deferential, working-class voters (the ones who kept her and her chums at the helm) time to return to the wise words of a man whose thoughts and writings are making a well-deserved come-back in these days of capitalist crisis:

The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e., the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force.

Karl Marx

[gallinello]

Yes, Santerme, facts do have a nasty way of getting in the way of perceived events; especially the facts that you omit:

In December the prisoners called off the hunger strike when the government appeared to concede their demands. However, the government immediately reverted to their previous stance, confident the prisoners would not start another strike. Bobby Sands, the Officer Commanding of the Provisional IRA prisoners, began a second action on 1 March, 1981. Outside the prison in a major publicity coup, Sands was nominated for Parliament and won the Fermanagh and South Tyrone by-election. But the British government was still resisting and on 5 May, after 66 days on hunger strike, Sands died. More than 100,000 people attended Bobby Sands' funeral in Belfast. Another nine hunger strikers (members of both the IRA and the INLA) died by the end of August before the hunger strike was called off in October.

Maggie Thatcher, best recruiting sargeant PIRA and Sinn Fein could ever dreamt of.

?Where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring faith. And where there is despair, may we bring hope?

Maggie, Maggie, Maggie...

[Santerme]

And you don't think that PIRA and INLA had a field day with the publicity gained from this.

Sands and his ilk, were probably the first suicide terrorists we have encountered.

The deal was there to end the hunger strike in July and the PIRA Council rejected it, because the propaganda value of the deaths was calculated to be and indeed was enormous.

It's what we call 4th generation warfare today!

All these events have multi layered approaches to them.

Robert McLarnon a senior Box 500 officer was engaged in talks with PIRA leadership throughout the hunger strikes.

[EDOldie]

gallinello Wrote:

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> EDOldie, are you serious about the milk-snatcher

> business ? i believe you're being deliberately

> provocative. I loved that free, calcium and

> mineral packed milk, and so did millions of my

> little schoolmates, and their often hard-up

> parents ( it was the seventies, remember.)

Yes I am being provocative, it goes beyond the health issue. Which ought to be paramount but probably isn't. It's more a principle of the state telling you whats good for you and your children rather than letting you decide yourself. It's not only wrong it is incredibly condecending. Also in my experience as a recipient of the milk it was usually warm and often off. Along with school dinners it was close to bullying.

[Marmora Man]

Gallinello,

You have an interesting take on life in the 80's & 90's and the period 1979 - 1990. Were you a full voting participant throughout that time?

I was - and I can speak with authority on the sinking of the Belgrano. The ship was, as Santerme said, a threat to the British Task Force. Britain did not seek the war over the Falklands - Argentina invaded the Falkalnds as a deliberate act of war, and in the best traditions of dictatorships everywhere, to shore up its support at home. Note they are NOT the Malvinas - the British first sighted and recorded the islands in the 17th century and were eventually ceded control by the Spanish in the 18th century. There have been claims and counter claims since early 19th century but the islands were colonised by the British and the claim is bullet proof under international law.

At the time the Argentinian Navy was sending it aircraft carrier and other warships to the area - the majority being shadowed by UK submarines. The Belgrano was protected by two Type 42 escorts, powerful warships with effective anti submarine capability. Their crews had been trained, ironically, by the Royal Navy. The Commanding Officer of HMS CONQUEROR, Chris Wreford-Brown, was able to evade the escorts and attack from a range of 1800 yards. Of four torpedoes - three struck and the Belgrano sunk. From that moment onwards the Argentinian Navy was no threat to the British Task Force.

A brief history of the Falklands is attached.

Marxism is an interesting political theory but has never been made to work in practice.

[EDOldie]

Could end up with another battle of Goose Green here if we're not careful

[macroban]

> The Belgrano was protected by two Type 42 escorts, powerful warships with effective anti submarine capability. Their crews had been trained, ironically, by the Royal Navy. The Commanding Officer of HMS CONQUEROR, Chris Wreford-Brown, was able to evade the escorts and attack from a range of 1800 yards.

Not to decry fine seamanship, but is there more to this? After World War II the British Government sold refurbished German Enigma machines to third world countries having advertised them as un-breakable.

[Marmora Man]

macroban Wrote:

Not to decry fine seamanship, but is there more to this? After World War II the British Government sold refurbished German Enigma machines to third world countries having advertised them as un-breakable.

No - they received the best training we could give them. They chose their own equipment tho' so the sonars may nopt have been fully "state of the art".

[AllforNun]

pointless conversation really, there is absolutely no way the Americans would have let the UK lose that one.

[Marmora Man]

AFN - for a while the USA was pressurizing UK to go for a negotiated deal as some elements of the US Foreign Department felt S.America was more important than UK and old colonies.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

gallinello Wrote:

Too much sun, TLS. Relax, wipe the rabid flecks from your parched, cracked lips and reflect!

I'm sure there's a massive Commune, somewhere in The Suburbs, that churns out sneering "Class Warriors" who are simply incapable of communicating without the, inevitable, snide remarks, whether it be "rabid" or somesuch nonsense.

Anyway, I WAS right in the heart of Maggie's 1980's as I worked in Fleet Street and saw those lovable Cocknee Sparra's at the Print sign on at Midnight and go and do their "Moonlighting" Cab Work ( Not going to Brixton, Darling, sorry") and sign back on again at 6.00AM. The same Guys who would unload stuff, with 2 of them working and 10 others watching on.

The same Guys who would meet us in The White Swan or Poppinjay or The Bell and play us Darts after we finished work at 5.00PM, during their "lunch hour" that lasted until we were all chucked out at 11.00PM.

The same guys who held their fortnightly "Maggie, Maggie, Maggie, Out! Out! Out!"

Maggie sorted them out...even The Union Barons of The Print who, unlike The Management, actually DID run the papers...