Lordship Lane incident

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

On the plus side, Somerfield was nice and quiet yesterday evening.

[Keef]

I was stopped and searched at a train station once, because a police dog got a whiff of my inhaler! It took half hour for them to go through my bag, unfold every little bit of paper in my wallet and all that. Made me very late for an appointment, and their attitude was shite, so yes, I think even innocent people would have a problem with police having this power all the time.

One of my best mates is a Police Officer, and whilst he is a decent, sensible chap, I have met a lot of his colleagues, and a lot of them are just power hungry bullies, plain and simple. That is not to say the whole police force is like that, but it exists, and it's these ones who will be the first to stop and search someone!

[Jeremy]

ClareC, no you shouldn't be shot down for saying that, because a lot of people feel the same way!!

But the problem is, as you say, when you are repeatedly stopped and searched. I can imagine that it would soon become not just irritating and inconvenient, but humiliating and demeening. And as Keef says, unfortunately a lot of police officers are not in the job for the right reason, and get a kick out of their power. So stop & search is a pretty delicate area.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Normalising Stop and Search for knife crime would mean those powers would then be extended for any other "problem" which comes along. I think Quid's take on the reasons for football hooliganism's reduction is a tad one-dimensional

This report for example has plenty of other factors to take into account

Are there many countries where the state goes down the road of increased police powers to this extent and done well? I can think of a few examples (Germany, Ireland) where it has been a vey bad thing. It brutalises the state

There is a reason knife-carrying (and therefore knife-crime) is more prevelant than in the past. This country, as with America, follows a winner takes all model. The more equality widens the more you will see of it. It really doesn't matter if you or I think "well, it's the individuals choice to carry a knife" - as a society we all have to take responsibility for creating the social conditions which breed this kind of behaviour

I'm not inherently against stop and search - but I wouldn't want to see it promoted as THE CURE. As well as curtailing all of our freedoms, it becomes counter-productive in what it sets out to do

[jimmy two times]

The Police should target who they stop and search . There is no point stopping and searching an eighty year old granny if you are trying to stop knife crime. Eighty year old grannies are not going around stabbing people.

[matthew123]

What is it that provokes the Police to stop and search a particular individual, is that the colour, is it the hooded top, is it their age, or something more innocent? I often get stopped and searched when I go to the football or airport - and you know what I'm glad because it means they're checking that people are not carrying a weapon that can cause harm.

If there is a risk of being stopped and searched will that increase or decrease the chance of someone deciding to carry a lethal weapon on the streets? Should we be worried about ruffling the feathers of those the Police consider worthy, rightly or wrongly, of stop and search versus the benefit of saving just one life?

Of course there are scum bags in every walk of life and yes they will also exist in the Police force happy to abuse their powers - but does anyone disagree with the concept of stop and search on our streets? The alternative is treat everyone as an adult and simply place up signs such as, 'Please do not carry knives down Lordship Lane', I wonder which strategy would be more effective....

[SeanMacGabhann]

A very good example of what is wrong with police powers - airport security measures as exist are theatre and only serve to annoy an awful lot of passengers. If you feel reassured by them more fool you but it means the rest of us have to suffer whilst any dedicated terrorist can still efefctively do what they want

[jimmy two times]

Sean are you anti Police?

[Jamma]

I'm not anti police but when walking up Lordship Lane last night I reached the tape and asked the officer if the road was closed off to pedestrians too or if I could walk up the pavement. He said it was all closed and added 'this tape seems to confuse people' in a sarcastic way. I pointed out there was people walking up the other side of the pavement. I have no idea if they were breaking the cordon, or witnesses held inside the cordon or what. Why did he have to behave like such a c0ck to a blameless and polite member of public?

[Wombat]

Jamma Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm not anti police but when walking up Lordship

> Lane last night I reached the tape and asked the

> officer if the road was closed off to pedestrians

> too or if I could walk up the pavement. He said it

> was all closed and added 'this tape seems to

> confuse people' in a sarcastic way. I pointed out

> there was people walking up the other side of the

> pavement. I have no idea if they were breaking the

> cordon, or witnesses held inside the cordon or

> what. Why did he have to behave like such a c0ck

> to a blameless and polite member of public?

Surely that crime scene tape was a bit obvious though?

[matthew123]

Yes Jamma he might have thought you were being sarcastic yourself whilst no doubt he felt publicly humiliated having been assigned crime tape duties rather than play the role of his boyhood hero sherlock holmes

[shoshntosh]

what wigglebear said on page two of this thread.

and i thought the english weren't overly dramatic... you know, stiff upper lip and all that...

[Keef]

I came home to my old flat near Sydenham station once a year or so ago, and there had been a stabbing, and the victim had managed to get to the station and call for help. My road was closed, and I explained to a senior looking officer, who was very helpful, and said he'd walk me to my door. He then got called away, and when I tried talking to a junior officer, he more or less told me to get lost, so I couldn't get in to my house for hours. I understand the need for all this, but as Jamma says, the attitudes can stink!

[SimonM]

Three people stabbed...three arrested...mention of wine being nicked....I think that's about all the real facts actually known. And yet why do I feel crushed by a stampede of hobby horses or suffocated by a raging sandstorm of sweeping generalisations (delete whichever absurd metaphor irritates more).

People who profer the mildest criticism of modern airport "security" measures are asked if they are "anti police"

The poor old Guardian is not only now somewhere between the Anarchists' Cookbook and "Mein Kampf" as loastheome literature but is also a term of abuse.

Weird

[jimmy two times]

The senior officer's attitude clearly didn't stink.

[SeanMacGabhann]

What SimonM said

Jimmy why would you infer that?

I am against too much power with the police (only at the turn of the 20th century-ish, have Londoners started to respect the police - before then they were routinely despised) but I am fully in support of the need for a policeforce

But as mentioned on other threads - powers need controls

[thebeard]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I was stopped and searched at a train station

> once, because a police dog got a whiff of my

> inhaler! It took half hour for them to go through

> my bag, unfold every little bit of paper in my

> wallet and all that. Made me very late for an

> appointment, and their attitude was shite, so yes,

> I think even innocent people would have a problem

> with police having this power all the time.

>

> One of my best mates is a Police Officer, and

> whilst he is a decent, sensible chap, I have met a

> lot of his colleagues, and a lot of them are just

> power hungry bullies, plain and simple. That is

> not to say the whole police force is like that,

> but it exists, and it's these ones who will be the

> first to stop and search someone!

From what I saw in Paris those who were being stopped and searched appeared fairly comfortable almost used to having it happen to them.

The Police officers were relaxed and pleasant and smiled two carried out the stop and search and another with a dog stood back and watched it was the same format each time.

Those being stopped were asked for identity cards and their bags were searched a metal detector was passed over them. The same process each time without anyone taking any real notice.

I havn?t see a stop and search in London for years so have no idea what the format is.

One Day in Paris and I know exactly how they do it.

Pretty much says it all "

[jimmy two times]

Sean I'm not offering an opinion. It's just an observation I have made from other Police related postings from you, not just on this thread.

[thebeard]

BBC report on Stop and Search.

Interesting ish

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzzDSW7UY-g

Funny Barack Obama arrested by french police !

They are so polite... and they speak english too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8jE_Xg-K8A

[david_carnell]

Without wishing to put words in his mouth, Sean (and a few others on here inc. myself) are probably more anti-authoritarian than anti-police per se.

The idea that a tougher and tougher law&order programme can solve everything from anti-social behaviour to murder seems overly simplistic. This isn't Guardianista, liberal-pinko wishy-washy, give-them-all-a-hug advocacy - merely a feeling that there are deeper issues at the root of this that police brutality, stop-and-search, capital punishment et al do not solve by themselves (or in some cases, at all).

No-one is pro-crime or pro-criminal (at least not that I've seen) but the ultra-hardline responses that some have posited as an answer to modern social issues I find occasionally frightening.

[Domitianus]

jimmy two times Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think the gang thing is overblown. How does one

> define a gang? In theory any 4 lads together could

> be classified as a 'gang'. Young men carrying

> knives is nothing new. Back in the fifties and

> sixties the fashionable weapon of choice was a

> cuth-throat razor which assailants used to 'slash'

> faces. In the seventies and eighties it was

> Stanley knives. I'm not sure why the so-called

> well meaning Liberals are to blame for letting

> this happen? The only people responsible are the

> knife wielders. No one has forced them to carry

> and use a knife no matter what hardships they've

> suffered in their upbringing. The justice dished

> out to them should be suitably harsh.

If there is a fashion element to this, i.e. what is the cool weapon of choice; then perhaps we could get some role models to start to tool up with those straight potato peelers or something comparatively innocuous. If everyone followed suit coz it was the cool thing, then we might have a few scrapings and occasional gouging but no real stabbings. I mean if we can't get rid of knives completely, perhaps we should aim for harm reduction? Just a thought.

[thebeard]

citizenED Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> No, if the likes of theBeard were in power we'd be

> in a far more dangerous and scary place. He sees

> the world in terms of them and us, when the world

> is actually a many-faceted place.

No I don?t!

I believe in a fair and balanced society and Freedom.

Freedom from fear and oppression, from aggressive youth + adults + police + government + neighbours + all of ?them? who over step reasonable levels of behaviour.

Others would have it that we should have the Freedom to carry a knife and walk our streets without worry of being caught.

UPSIDE DOWN freedom.

Freedom is a funny thing.

Just look at the democratic Freedom Iranians have. Hysterical?

Exactly how much MORE dangerous can it get?

As I said in an earlier post these kids will look for different prey in a few years.

We all need to fight for our Freedom from FEAR? and Aggression

The opportunity of GOOD? EDUCATION HOUSING and FAMILY for ALL = a Decent Society.

I won?t be guided by our Ayatollahs.

I?m no FASCIST.

Just a Practical REALIST.

[SeanMacGabhann]

You are no realist TB, just OTT

When you ask

You would have us believe that the world 10 years ago was a nirvana. Jaysus how would you react if some of the events of the 60s, 70s, and 80s had happened. Suss laws, riots on the streets

In many many ways things are much much better today. Precisely because of the freedoms we now have

There are some things which are worse and which need addressing

You say

and who could argue with that. But we don't have that do we? If you are born into the wrong family your chances of achieving anything plummet dramatically. Someone has to do do 3 cleaning jobs to pay the rent and that could be you if you are unlucky. And that's before you reach your teenage years. It must be very tempting to a badly brought up kid to look at the positives hanging with a bad lot if he sees so much failure around him

That doesn't mean I'm giving anyone a free pass to commit crime - I'm just saying phrases like "fighting FEAR and AGGRESSION" is just so much posturing. It don't work - if you can show me anywhere in the world or time where it did or does work I am open for conversion

[Dog]

As I've said before, football hooliganism was virtually eliminated by highly illiberal police tactics...

I'd heard, on reasonably good authority, that mass football hooliganism largely died out in the late 80s because of the sudden fondness for consumption of ecstasy of a Saturday afternoon. Fans couldn't be buggered to batter seven bells out of each other. They'd rather hug.

Not woof.

[ibilly99]

Lived here 20 years and something seems to be going badly wrong with our society and area - decades of child centric chickens coming home to roost - time for me to move back to Asia - where I kid (pardon the pun) you not children are both a delight and well behaved - no tantrums in supermarkets or school bus madnesses.