V1 & V2 Bombs dropped on Lordship Lane.

[LibraCarr]

Hi,

What a interesting thread, I thought it was only the East End and central London that got hit. Well done to the researchers.

Kind regards,

Libra Carr.

[Huguenot]

It's great!

computedshorty, may I ask that you differentiate between your own views and those you've quoted - it will all aid a terrific history!

It's worth considering how impactful these events were, when the same number of people were killed in Iran and Iraq in the last 15 years of various conflicts.

If you ever doubt the context, please remember that there will be 10 year olds today, who quote similar memories in 60 years time. Remember, we did this when we sat on a plastic chair.

[????]

I agree -I Used to chat with my nan who died in 1981 and she had great personal stories about the 'Great War', the General Strike, the East End,the Blitz etc which I'll bore my kids with in the future. The wider coverage in various media especially since WW2 and of course the internet will undermine the power of that oral tradition ...although I suppose adding a peronal memory of, say 9/11, may help persomalise it for someone in the future

[louisiana]

I understand a bomb also fell around where the telephone exchange is (and perhaps there used to be a fire station there which presumably got bombed - hence the name Fireman's Alley).

[Penguin68]

brum wrote:

I heard that SE London took the brunt of the V1 & V2 attacks because British Intelligence deliberately issued false damage reports making the Germans think they were hitting the docks & central London instead - they didn't know that their rockets were actually falling short of their intended targets. Anyone know if this is true?

I believe that this is true, SIS used the 'turned' German spies to report falls of missiles to the North and West of London, causing the aimers to reduce their aim, so that they started to fall to the south and east - hence the damage in SE London, Bromley etc. By 1944 the Luftwaffe was virtually interdicted from English skies, so direct observation from planes wasn't a possibility.

Last night on TV Kate Humble learned that her grandfather, a test pilot, had helped prove the fighter that could take on the Flying bombs and shoot them down, downing over 600 if my memory from the programme serves. Tne ballistic missile however moved at supersonic speeds and couldn't be shot down.

[computedshorty]

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[Sandperson]

macroban Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sandperson:

>

> > Did you not see? Last week it was. There was

> police tape up and everything. William rose was

> devastated and in Liquorice several cocktails were

> spilled.

>

> Well perhaps Sandperson didn't have relatives or

> family friends involved.

No, I didn't Macro but I do know about the tremendous loss of life. At the time my mother had been evacuated to the Midlands and my father was fighting the Japanese in the Pacific, with the Royal Navy (not alone). My op was an answer to a rather opaque post that seemed a bit random to me. My mother's family were lucky not to have had any bombs dropped on them although my grandfather (who was injured in the Somme in WW1) was bombed out of the factory he worked in.

A lot of this stuff has been covered in other threads. The two houses next to the new flats on Anstey Road have completely new top floors and the basements are filled with rubble from bomb damage which blew off the entire first floors.

I have done a fair bit of reading around the V1 and V2 projects and have not been able to substantiate the rumours that the government deliberatly misled the Germans who, in turn, kept dropping their V weapons on SE London because they thought they were hitting the docks. The V weapons, whilst being advanced in technology terms, were not very advanced in targeting terms and it was mostly dumb luck that they got to London in the first place. A fascinating and very readable account of the V weapons programme is this book.

Macro, sorry if I offended you, it wasn't my intention to belittle the suffering of the people who were caught up in the bombing. As I hope you will see I am not ignorant of the facts, in fact I spend rather a lot of time reading about and visiting World War One and Two sites across Europe and trying to meet as many of the people involved in the conflict to find out about the human story. It was my job for a while.

[macroban]

Chapter 8 "Crossbow: The Flying Bombs June-December 1944" in Volume 5 of of "British Intelligence In The Second World War: Strategic Deception" edited by Michael Howard covers in detail the subject misleading impact reports sent to the Germans.

Details of book here...

[Sandperson]

Hmm, that's not a series I've come across but having had a quick look it looks interesting. My sense of deja vu was tingling when I found this thread Macro.

[Penguin68]

In the thread linked by Sandperson there is a suggestion that the diversion was 'away from the City' - in fact the diversion, as I understand it, was away from highly populated areas of Central London and into the suburbs, in particular away from the docks and areas of government - both of some strategic importance at the time. This was not about wealthy toffs getting others to be bombed in their stead. Ideally the fields of Kent was where government wanted the bombs to drop (if they had to drop anywhere) rather than areas of higher population - but of course anywhere they did drop casualties were likely. The history of deception - including for manned bombers the creation, using lights etc. of fake towns and industrial plant/ docks, as well as attempts to confuse and repoint the radio direction beams used by the Germans for manned bomber navigation is a very interesting study. Much of the information about it was suppressed for a long time (like the information about the work at Bletchely Park) because it still had relevance to (then) current defence issues.

[macroban]

This book - Blake L, Red Alert: The Story of South East London at War, 1939-1945 - published about 25 years ago is a local historian's view of trying to make sense of the deception. I believe Mr Blake lived in Beckenham and had noticed that Bromley and Beckenham had a disproportionate incidence of V1 impacts (far more than East Dulwich).

As for V1 accuracy: ram-jet guidance was pretty rudimentary in 1944.

I still have a nagging suspicion from examining a plot map of actual impacts and spurious impacts reported back to the Germans that the German re-targeting of V1s moved from the West End and North West London 5-10 miles South-Eastwards towards the Pas De Calais.

[computedshorty]

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[Penguin68]

Out of interest, there is still evidence (in pre-war houses in ED) of damage done by the bombs, both those dropped from planes and particularly the V weapons. This damage/ evidence of movement can be attributed by surveyors now to current subsidence, but in some cases at least these are old (and stable) injuries. If you have an adverse survey it may be worth checking from the records admirably recorded and referred to by Shorty whether your house was close to a blast area, as this might explain old cracks/ walls out of alignment. (It's the equivalent of checking whether you had a tree close to the house, now removed, which could have caused movement, but where the 'problem' is now only historical).

[Huguenot]

Sure Shorty, I don't think anyone was looking to create offence, and you're absolutely right, it's fascinating discussion where no-one can guarantee agreement because of its public nature.

I truly hope that you'll find guys who can share their experiences.

(I was only asking earlier for clarity - but I should add that you said 'facts' were in broad type, but the post previous to this one was clearly opinion not fact, and it was in bold type).

[macroban]

Shorty,

About a year ago I uploaded a photograph of what is supposed to be the East Dulwich ARP team.

Is your Dad in the photo?

Photograph here.

MacRoban

[computedshorty]

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[lilolil]

Computershorty

Do you mean the Percy Seymour who was a builder and lived in Darrell Road? Big chap who always wore his shirts open to the waist???

My Uncle Ern was also a member of the ARP. He lived in Oglander Road so I'm not sure where he would have been based

[computedshorty]

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[lilolil]

Hello Compeutedshorty.

Sadly Percy died in the 1980's.

He had an accident as I recall where he fell from some rafters. He was taken to hospital and they found that he had cancer. He died very soon after that, sorry.

He was a very strong man with a heart of gold.

[computedshorty]

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[computedshorty]

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[computedshorty]

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[Fuschia]

http://www.flyingbombsandrockets.com/V1_summary_dulwich.html

http://dulwichonview.org.uk/2008/02/15/review-of-dulwich-architecture-talk-1948-%e2%80%93-dulwich-life-after-ww-ii/

[Lee B]

Hi,

Just to say that apparently my house on Elsie Road is built on the site of a house that was bombed during the war. The garden's full of debris that the builders in the 60's threw a load of top soil over.

Also, my nan used to tell me stories of walking back to her mum's house in Crystal Palace after being at the cinema during blackouts with the searchlights being pointed into the skies to pick out the bombers.

[computedshorty]

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