Child abuse - Ireland's Catholic shame

[giggirl]

Actually Legal isn't it rather like discovering anything bad (horrific/strange) about someone you thought you knew? Remember Sonia Sutcliffe? She found out she was married to a mass murderer and swore blind she never knew. I suppose it's possible that she didn't. What about finding out that the nice old man down the road is a war criminal? There's a great scene in The Sopranos when the daughter explains to her younger brother what dad actually did for a living (not waste management).

[LegalEagle-ish]

I wasn't implying anything Mick, I was saying that if DM or anyone else has experienced abuse at the hanfs of the Catholic church, it would be wrong to expect the victims not to want to express their anger about their abusers.

GG that is an interesting trail of thought. If you are surrounded by a norm of behaviour that is abusive and sick, it would probably take a strong person not to be influenced by that norm especially if their resistance caused them to become an outcast.

[Mick Mac]

Legal i thought you were suggesting monica had in some way chosen to ignore the issue or the victims rights to express their anger. I think lots of catholics are ashamed that this has happened but that they remain loyal to the values of the church despite the shameful actions of many priests and nuns who have let themselves and the church down. I think DM on the other hand had a personal axe to grind and i thought she was insensitive towards monica. Im not a fan of the catholic church but i do have sympathy when someone is picked upon unfairly.

[dulwichmum]

I was not picking on Monica. I simply do not understand why some people refuse to believe the evidence in front of them, and I don't see any point in arguing with fanatics.

[Narnia]

Mick, what do you think the values of the church are exactly? My recollection of them in brief is that you do as we say and go to heaven, you don't and you go to hell! I think DM wrote as she saw and be it insensitive towards someone else or not she is entitled to air her views. I don't think that if those views are directly opposed to someone else's it should be considered that the latter is being picked on.

[Mick Mac]

Declan - I no longer concern myself with what the values of the catholic church are - but Monica seems a nice person and she believes the church has value in her life.

Whilst I am in DM's camp on the issues raised and am a firm non believer in God or any religion, I think some issues should be approached with a little more diplomacy. I would not want DM speaking to my mother either in the way she has posted on this thread.

Whilst my mother, as an example, would accept that there are many wrongdoers in the Catholic church, she would believe that overall it is a force for good. Its very difficult for some people to set aside hundreds of years of teaching that has formed part of their families' beliefs and habits for generations, from cradle to grave.

My mother for example, still prays for me.

My 7 year old daughter on the other hand, does not know what a prayer is.

[monica]

dulwichmum Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I was not picking on Monica. I simply do not

> understand why some people refuse to believe the

> evidence in front of them, and I don't see any

> point in arguing with fanatics.

DM Im not a fanatic, just a firm believer in being respectful and diplomatic to my fellow man. You may believe my family are fanatics and good luck with that, however I was brought up to respect others, listen to my elders and always treat others how I would like to be treated.

Declan you have made your point and thanks again, but I have come to understand that no matter what you say on this forum, DM always wins.

[monica]

MickMac thanks again for your support, you are very sweet.(hope your wife is ok with this comment)

[Santerme]

Well so far we have had the uber superior, 'Sweetie' comment....then 'you should get out more' and now the arguing with fanatics tag line.

Some people don't know when to stop digging.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I don't understand what is meant by this comment monica?

[giggirl]

Monica,

The forum is not a single entity; we are all capable of reading a thread and drawing our own conclusions. Isn't that the whole point? Of course it's rather difficult in this case because DM has deleted her original posts. Nevertheless, we all have our own opinions and there are no winners or losers.

[Jah Lush]

I also think that DM by deleting her previous posts may be having a slight tinge of regret in being so venomous in her vitroil.

[Mick Mac]

As in life, there are people who never back down in an arguement, people on the forum are no different. Could that be all that Monica is saying?

[Jah Lush]

No, I don't think so. DM was perfectly within her right to express her disgust in the way she saw things but at the same time there was no need for the condescending way she replied to Monica. Having said that I also think it's a cop out that she's deleted her earlier posts.

[Mick Mac]

Jah

I'm trying to guess/suggest what Monica meant by her above post.

Noone is suggesting DM cannot comment on the issue of this thread. That's different.

[Jah Lush]

Oh sure Mick. It was a bit of silly comment (Monica's not mine).

[monica]

Sean Thanks for the comment, Im sorry you misundersood the comment. I do feel that the forum is actually quite clicky at times so because DM is well loved and liked, i understand why she can get away with most of the comments she posts. I actually thought she was funny, but this thread has revealed a pretty viscious side to her, which I am sure we all have time to time.

Gigirl I know you are not a single entity, and I apologise if you took my post in the wrong way, however again I feel that I have been ganged up against and its put me off posting on the lounge. Shame really, I will stick to the community stuff and not bother with my opinions.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Sorry mon but in have met you as often as dm. Ie not often

I don't see as she got away with anything on here. If anything vince was far more vile to her in a post now removed.

She has also removed her posts and whatever your feelings about what she said about you it's fairly obvious to anyone Reading that she appers far more hurt than you. Which isn't to say I agree with all if the comments aimed in your direction by her

on top of that most of the supportive posts on here have been for you not her

so again, not only do I not understand your claim if her winning but also take issue with your subsequent claims

[monica]

Sean Apologies again, fed up with this and I really have now been put of posting yet again. As I said shame

[Narnia]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As in life, there are people who never back down

> in an arguement, people on the forum are no

> different. Could that be all that Monica is

> saying?

Mick your 'rescue' of Monica from the beast that is DM is admirable up to a point. You started the thread with an attack of people with 'blind faith' which I presume you would think includes by definition, Monica. You must a a sore bum sitting on that fence!

PS Am prepared to retract last sentence if taken as being offensive.

[Jah Lush]

Monica, don't be put off by posting on here or anywhere else in The Lounge for that matter. I think you'll find that the "witty persona" Dulwichmum adopts is what makes her popular on here but when on the rare occasion she steps out of that character then the real person underneath is revealed, which turns out from her postings on this thread isn't so nice after all. Having said that I can fully understand her anger if DM or any other members of her family have been subjected to such abuse but she certainly hasn't done herself any favours on this thread by some of her remarks. Hence the deletion of her earlier "vicious" posts which I'm sure she isn't too proud of.

[dulwichmum]

No Jah. I am proud of them. I deleted them in response to a comment from Vinceyre.

[Ladymuck]

monica Wrote:

> ....however again I feel that I have been ganged up

> against and its put me off posting on the lounge.

> Shame really, I will stick to the community stuff

> and not bother with my opinions.

Doesn't the fact that a fellow forumite feels like this tell us something about our own behaviour? No forumite should be made to feel that his/her opinions are worthless - and Monica's are as valid as anybody else's. This forum is about inclusivity, not the reverse.

[giggirl]

I've never met DM; I've met very few forumites. I don?t go to drinks (I might go tomorrow because it?s Christmas but I probably won?t). I do find the 'clique' accusation that frequently arises completely tedious. Most people on the forum are intelligent so I think if they disagreed with DM or anyone else they would say so (and they are saying so).

I?ve read this thread (minus DM?s deleted posts of course) and I?m really not seeing anything that justifies your statement ?I feel that I have been ganged up against?. Obviously there?s been a big war of words with DM but I haven?t read her posts so how can I comment on what took place? From reading everyone else?s posts I?m honestly not seeing you as someone who has been ganged up on, or evidence of a clique closing ranks. If I?m honest I feel frustrated that you say you won?t post in the lounge any more because of this episode.

I do think you?ve made your point now about DM and I think it?s time that everyone moved on.

[dulwichmum]

I understand that this forum is inclusive, but I don't understand where Monica is coming from at all. As Sean points out, most of what is written on this thread is supportive of Monica, but still she says that she feels intimidated by my support - I don't see it. When she thanks Mickmac for his support, she says "I hope your wife is ok with this comment". I thought that we were able to debate and chat openly on this forum. Monica will be slapping men with a fan next. This is all a bit Victorian.

This thread started out by outlining the dangers of blind faith, and I completely agree. This forum is not a clique, I think that the day it becomes one, no-one will bother with it. We enjoy a lively debate.