annaj

sean, I didn't see your original thread before it was censored, so I honestly say what I thought of it, but I do know that it was removed, because a record number other forum users complained about it. I don't think this is a quesiton of freedom of speech, but of drawing boundries about what is and isn't acceptable on a public forum and thinly veiled references to vigilante justice are not acceptable to me. Every story has two sides; I have no idea why the people in question behave the way they do, but there is bound to be a reason and it may be more complex than it first appears. Insulting and riduculing them on a public forum just doesn't seem constructive or fair. Edited for a typo

Just to say, I have just posted my 500th message! Obviously, I'm still a long way behind thoses in the thousands (you know who you are) but feel strangely proud anyway. Now, where did I put that life? I know I used to have one...

I can understand the frustration of noisy and anti-social neighbours, but the increasingly agressive, judgemental and even violent tone of the messages posted about these people really bothers me. The previous, now locked, thread used some very disturbing and sinister language - "practical justice" for example. I don't live on Whateley, so all I've ever experienced is being shouted at a bit when I walk down the road, but it's never been enough to make me cross over of feel intimidated. I'm willing to believe that there is more of a problem for residents, but if that's the case then the behaviour should be reported to the relevant authorities. There is no justification for publically insulting individuals on a forum like this and certainly no place for talk of lynching, getting them out or "practical justice".

Good thread Wimpole, nice to have something worth talking about in the lounge... David, don't worry, you were both charming drunks. Also, excellent dancing! Oh and I did meet MrBen, but since it was a first meeting I thought it might be unfair to publically mock him the next day. Keef, I'm thinking of recommending your band to a colleague who's organising a ball for all of the South London and Kent A&E registrars. Quite a scary crowd. Does that sound like the kind of event you'd do?

I'm with Sean, I haven't been in, but I think the "boudoirish" front is quite attractive. Also, boudoirish is definitely my word of the week, I'll be trying to use it whenever I can...

badger! Nooooooo! Please don't exclude me from the friends audition. I've been so looking forward to it and surely you wouldn't deny this ignorant hetty the chance to meet an actual, real life homosexual would you? Scruffy Mummy, extremely kind words, thank you. Sean and Mockney, well, the stories I could tell....

Sorry to go on about it, but are we saying this kind of sexist drivel is fine, but I'm being called a misogynist on another thread for having an opinion? Time for me to take a forum break to avoid an embarassing flounce off I think.

Well, I had both my cats sliced open and their sexual organs removed so they don't express sexuality at all. But then I am a notorious misogynist and homophobe and also extremely ignorant, so I didn't know any better.

Oh dear, I can see that this is all calming down now and I know I should just walk away (but not flounce off Sean) but I just can't. I'm sorry. First I have to agree with Sean, the orginial debate will never be settled, there will always be (at least) two interpretations of what was said. I accept that, but I still don't accept someone coming back after a couple of months and insulting everyone who disagreed with her. Scruffy Mummy, your posts have been interesting and well written and I think you make some very valid points. I do have to point out some of the things I said in my early posts on this thread though. You said: "I also think sometimes people really underestimate the feeling of having to ALWAYS defend your personal choices" Back on page one I said: "I can't say I know how you feel or what you're experiencing, but I can imagine that you face a fair amount of prejudice and ignorance. Maybe that has left you feeling defensive" You said: "this thread seemed to question what I think is a legitimate need for lesbian and gay parents to have a group in which they can meet and discuss issues that they share that parents who aren't lesbian and gay don't understand" Again on page one I said: "I see the purpose of and need for an exclusive support or social group" You said: "Part of the problem is that asking questions via the forum or email means that it is very open to misunderstanding" Last time now. On page one I said: "good point about text being easy to misinterpret or take out of context, because it's presented without all the subtle extra cues of face-to-face conversation." So, if you actually read what I've written perhaps I'm not as backward and ill-informed as you've implied. Maybe, just maybe I'm saying a lot of the same things you are. As for the question of education and who should be resonsible for educating the ignorant masses. I completely agree that feeling constantly under pressure to explain and defend your lifesytle must be exhasting and frustrating. So, sticking with your assumption that I'm completely ignorant to all gay issues (because it is an assumption, I never asked the questions just defended someone elses right to. You actually know nothing about me, who I am or who I know) how should I educate myself if not by asking questions? It's just that I think I'd feel a bit silly pitching up to a gay parents group, just to watch and learn! Iskandar, I accept that gay men and women may have different needs and benefit from specific support groups (as I think I've said a few times now), but the assumption that straight people can never understand what it's like to suffer prejudice or other challenges is a bit simplistic. It reminds me of the Pulp song "Common People" where good old Jarvis whines about how the middle classes never suffer anything. I know that I will never understand how it feels to be discriminated against on grounds of sexuality and that gay men and women experience challenges that I never will, but that doesn't mean that I haven't expereinced prejudice, isolation, bullying, judgment, fear and loss in other contexts. Last, but not least, am I the only person who sees the irony in the OP referencing the only-gay-in-the-village character? Surely that's a sketch where much of the comedy comes from the gay character percieving prejudice where there is none?

Hhhmmmm. The flounce-off is a powerful emotional tool and should be handled with respect and caution. Done well it can be devastating and most certainly argument winning. However, it can easily backfire and leave you sitting in the cold, with nothing to do, looking at your watch and wondering when it would be ok to slink back inside. I don't think I would ever flounce off from here, mostly because I know I'd end up slinking back, but I do sometimes stop posting for a while, because I know I'm not coming across as I would want to. There are also one or two posters I try to avoid engaging with, because I know it'll make me too cross..

I was tempted to leave this thread alone as it really doesn't seem to be making progress, but serious accusations have been made and not retracted and there are one or two things I feel compelled to say. cdoline and strawbs, I was really interested to read your posts, in the same way that I found MsB's post interesting, because she wasn't involved in the original discussion, and I'm sorry this thread has made you angry. I agree that cazzyr shouldn't have to justify her desire to find or start a gay parents group, but I don't think she was asked to justify it, just asked about it. I read lozzyloz'z question as motivated by curiosity and a desire to understand. I don't deny cazzyr, or anyone, her right to hang out with whoever she wants, but I am interested to know in what way the existing parent groups were not satisfactory. Is it that she felt excluded or encountered hostility? If so, that's something I'd like to know about, because it's clearly unacceptable. Or is it that the exisiting groups just don't meet her needs? I am a fairly empathic person and I think I can imagine the additional challenges faced by gay parents, but to assume that I know exactly what they are would be extremely arrogant, so why not ask? If curiosity is going to be redefined as prejudice then how are we supposed to get to know each other? I can see that the questions may have irriated and even offended, although I'm sure they were not intended to, but I still don't see how they were homophobic. Homophobia is the unreasoning fear of or antipathy towards homosexuals or homosexuality. Where is the fear or antipathy in the questions asked? scruffymummy, I found your assumption that those of us who disagree with cazzyr's attitude must be ignorant "hetties" who isolate ourselves from gay and lesbian events and communities rather rude and patronising. I'm not going to start listing my gay-friendly credentials, nothing could sound more naff at this point than "some of my best friends are....", but please don't make such broad assumptions and generalisation. So, in summary... I respect cazzyr's right to find or start a gay parents group and don't think she should have to justify her wish to do so, but my initial opinion that she over-reacted hasn't changed. I accept that others on here read lozzyloz's comments differently and offence was caused, although I believe it to be unintentional and for any part I had in that I am sorry. I am not "hate-filled" "ignorant" "misogynistic" or "homophobic" and until anyone can show any evidence that I am I will continue to feel wrongly judged and insulted. ps lovely pictures Mockney!

Thanks MsB, it's good to hear that response from someone who wasn't involved in the original discussion. I'm honestly troubled by how wronged cazzyr feels and by how much anger she's still carrying. I think of this forum as inclusive and supportive generally and it bothers me that someone has read it so differently.

cazzyr, I'm really sorry that you're still feeling hurt and victimised over this, but I've just read carefully back through the full five pages of posts and I can't find a "horrible hate filled invective". You were asked a question about your original post which you took offence at and, instead of answering and sharing how you feel and why, angrily over-reacted. Most of the hate and name-calling came from you and those supporting you. I really think you should try reading back through this thread with a clear head and try and notice all the positive and reasonable comments that were made. I hope that you have found the group you're looking for and that you feel supported in your parenting. But, please, think carefully before accusing an entire group of people, about whom you know very little, of mysogyny and homophobia, it is really very offensive.

An eyeopener is a drink first thing in the morning, or when you wake up.

Oh and the Japanese businessmen - an inbuilt lack alcoholdehydrogenase, the enzyme required to metabolise alcohol, is much more common in those of oriental origin.

Ok, putting units to one side for a moment, but sticking with the guilt (sorry CamberwellOz!) another way to assess your drinking is the CAGE questionnaire... Do you think you should Cut down on your drinking? Has anyone Annoyed you by criticising your drinking? Do you feel Guilty about drinking? Have you ever had an Eye-opener? A score of two or more suggests you may have a problem, 3 or more strongly suggests a problem. I'll start. I score 1 now, but used to score 3. Oh and MW74, if you're referring to me, I don't think I'm "the font of all bloody knowledge" I just happen to have quite a lot of experience, both professional and personal, of the adverse effects of alcohol.

She wouldn't though would she MW74, she'd being drinking the amounts that we've been talking about and she'd think she was fine. Like it or not this is particularly relevant for women. Women's livers are more at risk of alcohol damage and have less capacity to regenerate. Heart disease is also becoming more common in women, we're almost catching up with men in the numbers it kills each year, and that may also be partly due to increased alcohol intake. Jah is right, there is good evidence that total abstinence is not healthy, 1-2 small glasses of red wine daily has been shown to be beneficial, and balanced information is vital for people to make informed decisions. But that doesn't alter the fact that most of us are drinking too much and those who work in public health and health promotion have a duty to give us that information, so that we can make decisions about our health.

I think the point of the current campaign is to make people aware of how many units are in each drink as research has shown that most people underestimate how many units they drink. I don't think that's unreasonable. Whatever you view on whether the the government should interfer in our health related decisions, surely they have a duty to inform. Let's see if the research behind the campaign is reflected on the forum... Answer this: If a woman drinks half a bottle of wine each evening with dinner, three large glasses in the pub on Friday and Saturday and a bottle of lager on a Sunday afternoon how many units has she had?

*sighs happily* Oh *Bob* you a so right. But are you a true Eurovision puritan? Do you, like me, think the phone voting has ruined it and it should all still be decided by the wildly prejudiced scores of each nation's panel of judges?

Can I resurrect the plea for a separate area for baby, child and family related stuff, please! The wanted section is so full of baby stuff that anything else disappears as soon as it goes on. It's obviously a great resource for local parents to sell and swap unwanted bits and pieces, and long may it continue, but it would be lovely if us non-parents could have a look in the wanted section without being faced by a whole screen of baby threads. Thanks:)) ps forum's great and everything.. thanks

At least unpredictable colleagues add some excitement. All I've done today is spend hours making figures on a spreadsheet into graphs (the kind of thing someone like Mockney could've done in five minutes whilst drinking his morning coffee and reading the Daily Mash) and all I've shown is that, when it comes to treating fractures, more senior doctors are, well, better than junior ones. Ground breaking. Doctors should not be made to do audit or statistics of any kind. It's just so wrong.

Completely off topic and I'll probably get completely ridiculed for liking this, but did you see Gok Wan on "How To Look Good Naked" last night? His subject was a woman who'd had breast cancer and had a mastectomy at only 31. She absolutely hated her body and found herself unrecognisable and ugly. He was wonderful; sensitive, empathic and yet direct in his communication with her. It was a joy to watch her gradually start to accept her body again. I wept from start to finish.

Belle, I've come to this far too late to offer anything useful, but I'm sure you'll look marvellous whatever you wear. You've got a great eye for stylish and unusual clothes and always look well put together. My younger sister always says "you can get away with wearing anything if you do it with enough confidence". Whatever you decide to wear remember that at I'm sure you'll pull it off with panache!

Ha ha! I can do both. Just looked for an smug looking emoticon (not that there is any reason to feel particularly smug about what is essentially genetic accident) but there isn't one...

No, not that I can find anyway. I was puzzled by Zebedee Trings post, but maybe he/she is just struggling with the quote function.