SeanMacGabhann

Jimmy - if you mean "does not having capital punishment mean we have more crime"? then I would say no it doesn't Bringing capital punishment back wouldn't deter the crimes you are concerned about. It would mean that innocent people die. And it would mean that as a society we have gone backwards and not forwards

That doesn't mean you can equate the two tho Jimmy The world has evolved in many ways since then, with many US states retaining the death penalty and still having massive drug/crime/murder problems. I would suggest the lower crime rate in the 50s has as much to do with a much smaller gap between the haves and have nots for example Nor would I say the 50s was a utopia either - back street abortions ahoy! The country was genuinely broke and people like me weren't welcome in B&Bs across the land Nor did Britain condone torture in the 50s

Tony: just to be clear - if that witty remark referred to me, it don't apply - I genuinely don't do drugs. Jimmy: I'm certainly not defending drug dealers. But I would say that prohibition doesn't work and the "war on drugs" as carried out in all countries is failing. I'm not going to simplay say "legalise drugs" but I do think youcan solve a lot of the problems asociated with drug-dealing in a better way I haven't got any stats re: Scandanavian countries to hand (where is Huguenot when you need him??) but I think most people are aware that they have a fairly enlightened and open society For an amusing take on how Americans see them... http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=225113&title=the-stockholm-syndrome http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=225126&title=the-stockholm-syndrome-pt.-2&byDate=true In any case I came up with 2 examples because you haven't been able to name one society in all of history which gained from torture If the police had those powers they would become under pressure to use them more often. I could grass you up (i could get some mates to corroborate) and the interesting thing about torture is it hurts - you will confess to being that drug dealer.. Even if torture worked, any civilised society should be above it, but as it doesn't even work more shame on us Jimmy, sounds like we have the same targets and want to solve the same problems, but I just can't accept in any way your pov viz: torture

Paris Hilton fair enough - I would hold out aganst exhonorating (sp) Mr Griffin tho Anyway - back to the matter in hand.. come on jimmy - anyplace or time in history where this kind of thing worked?

* checks the calendar * yep 2009 still have we not spent several millenia learning valuable lessons. Death Sentences and torture have never made for A Good And Happy Place to Live. In fact they have made things very much worse. What will make the country a safer place for law abiding citizens? In another thread I said you have 2 choices - the scandanavian liberal model or the Saudi rule-by-fear The model WE have chosen in this country makes for dog eat dog - so you can't cry foul when teh dogs get rabid. Oh and whatever system you choose you will never be able to be a 100% safe. Humans just ain't like that. But we can usefully spend our lives trying to mitigate baser instincts as much as possble. And that inclide torture, death penalty etc right in there with murderes and rapists Is that liberal? or is that not just screamingly, blindingly obvious. Prove me wrong - show me anywhere outside Jon Gaunts head where this kind of madness has led to a better society?

Sue Are you sure you haven't clicked on something to allow your browser to plugin to Plaxo - I doubt it can automatically see your address book without your permission. Although if you are talking about your googlemail contacts list and you got the invite via googlemail, that might be possible

The place has gone to the dogs because you don't have to have a scintilla of time for drugdealers/paedos to realise that employing the tactics you espouse is a road to hell for all of us Investing the police/army with that kind of power (or whenever/wherever they decide to seize it for themselves) has never ever ever ever ever ever led to any kind of peaceful harmonious society with nothing to fear. or are you going to show me somewhere? And don't forget to show the whole picture now... The place has gone to the dogs because some people think it's enough to say "I don't like drug dealers or paedos" as if there is a bunch of us who do. You haven't thought beyond your most basic instincts - "maim! destroy!"

are you serious mathew? christ this place has gone to the dogs lately What is the answer? Well what is the question? here's one - should drugs be illegal in the first place? Where does the crime stem from - the drugs, the dealers or forcing something with a pretty large market into the shadows? Here's another - what's wrong with existing legislation to catch drug dealers - my understanding is that people are more hacked off wih the sentences thet receive than the fact that they aren't caught Thirdly - where do you live? Because I can grass you up when we have a police state and see how you like it.

What, no Mockney Piers?

lol BBW - although sadly my response didn't live up to your billing

No Jimmy - it doesn't. It might please members of the stasi tho.. I didn't realise some peolpe saw Judge Dread as a role model and not satire And as for the piss-takers on this thread - that's YOUR drugs that are going to disappear as well as everyone elses human rights/dignity

Convicted drug-dealers were they, or were the police just doing a raid? Either way it's wrong but if they aren't even convicted and are just suspects that makes it worse x 10. Come on Jimmy even you know the police are human and make as many mistakes as the rest of us. They have forced their way into my flat at 3am in the morning and I don't really fancy being tortured onlyto be told it was a mistaken identity Also, drug dealers may be a blight on society but without them a large number of forumites wouldn't function.... that doesn't make it right of course. Just saying

So go on then Atila, who EXACTLY on this forum holds the view that this killer needs just a telling off?

Not really Atila you have managed to capitalise on a poor boys death in an attempt to (mis)represent my views. You have failed miserably to summarise what I have said You must be so proud

MM - you state that the failure of big government was inevitable and yet it has been big government that has pulled the world back from the brink (for all the thanks it will get) Speaking to individuals behind the scenes of banks and you realise just how close the whole thing came to breaking down - no wages in your account, no cash machines functioning, no bread on the table Governments, as a tool of the people, have been a factor in things not working but givernments of any hue have, for some time, been beholden not just to big money, but to the very poulace who would cry out if the champagne had stopped flowing earlier. For that same population to now lash out is childish. So whilst "big givernments" across Europe are failing at the polls that doesn't vindicate your belief - it just shows how little interest people have in the real things that run their lives. For a large part of the poulation, a little less Britains Got Talent, a little bit more reading and engagement with your community would go a long way. Then we wouldn't have to suffer this hangover

oooh you're not wrong. And those shoes.. what was he thinking?

Although to be fair, there aren't many of the mainstream parties who haven't had an egg or two lobbed at them as well - it doesn't mark the BNP out specifically Whilst I inherently agree with both Carnell and you MM, I am detecting a shift in the country generally - not just in voting the BNP but a more widespread, general, vengeful mood. Personally I don't like it one bit but I would be cautious about just assuming this is a mid-term kicking and noral service will be resumed at the next election

What is this pie in the sky you speak of Tony? When was this country respected and by who? One of it's finest hours was fighting against the very ethos you espouse. What would make the country respected again, once you have closed the doors? (Presumably you would stop people leaving as well?) I left a country of people like you specifically to live in a more racially diverse country. TO go one further I left a country BECAUSE of people like you To answer the 4 questions you asked someone else 1/ How have you, personally, adversely been affected by mass immigration to this Country over the last 40 years? Loaded question, why do I have to answer only about adverse aspects and not the many positive ones? So whilst my diet is enriched, my outlook and horizons expanded, I can't think of any adversitys cause by immigration 2/ Have your career prospects or environment or Culture sufferred? My career and prospects have several times been thwarted. Sometimes by people from this country, sometimes from my own country and sometimes from others. Is there a difference and what is it? As for culture, what does that mean? Are you John Major talking about maidens and warm beer again. It never applied to most of this country, ever. 3/ East Diulwich is not a comparitively diverse area, culturally, so roughly is your own area of residence diverse or are you, personally, a resident of the relatively non-diverse East Dulwich? Comparative to where? LL itself is homogenising but compared to most places I have lived it is diverse. 4/ If you are an East Dulwich resident why do you choose to live in a relatively non-diverse area of Inner London? Notwithstanding the above, it's a combination of many things - primarily proximity to town, green spaces, and enough space to be able to afford a decent place to live. Also worth noting is that comparative to other areas (and you can choose black Brixton or you can choose White Dagenham) it is also less crime-ridden

I have to pass the darn placed every single time I go home, and the smell is seriously distracting But yes, the best pizza in the area Gowlett included. That said I think they may become a victim of their own success - it's frequently overstretched in their but hopefully that's a nice surprise for them and they can adjust (as opposed to letting quality slide)

Sound as a pound One other thing tho - even if my argument is full of holes.. I know I'm fighting the good fight. I am not now, nor never will, give any ground to anyone who gives credence to an argument of "Other"ness. Or being swamped. or we can go to their countries but they can't come here. Horse shit - all of it I would credit humanity as being about the equivalent of a 12 year old adolescent boy. It knows there are "other" people out there. It knows at some point it will have to grow up and get on with them. But for now it's happy enough making them cry and teasing them. So whilst TLS may be technically correct when he states he seems a little bit more comfortable with that status quo (or regression) than I am. I am looking for the Fast Forward button..the one that gets us past all this nonsense. And when I read the message boards of the links above - well, you don't need me to tell you how angry it makes me

Quids, I don't think I've levelled that much at you I'm just not going to tolerate anyone defending the mindless drivel coming out of some people's mouths (I refer to the comments posted on the links, and not your post) You might want to understand it, as do I probably, but I'm certainly not going to give any ground on the issue. If people are feeling put out they would do well to spend the time on the internet genning up on some useful information instead of youporn (seeing as how, for once in ALL OF HISTORY, people on a lower income have as much access to info as the metropolitan elite. This is no mere detail. ) If I was that fellow gooner I would be going mental and wondering where you get off, how dare you etc. I'm just saddened. What was it about my post that was rabid. It's vehement in it's rebuttal of the argument that anyone is being swamped but what is "wrong" with it? Factually I mean. You do invoke buzzwords such as metropoltan elite a lot - I simply pointed out their jobs are as insecure as anyone elses - what's your point? Which point have you made that wants a response? 1) we both agree that the BNP increasing their powerbase is A Bad Thing 2) you think the reasons for this support is a metropolitan, elitist powerbase which pays no heed to it's core support. I don't. I believe that fundamentally, a large proportion of people are lazy in their thinking and always look for a scapegoat. I make no claim that that is the sole province of any class. I see it in offices as much as I do the pub or anywhere else. Just as *Bob* posted his maxim years ago that most people are cocks, I am simply restating that fact with relevance to the "immigration" issue 3) Your worries about devolution to a European powerbase. The evolution of that European powerbase is, I believe, absolutely critical to the future prosperity and peace of this and other European nations. It has, in various incarnations, addressed the issues which caused 2 world wars and whilst (and this is important I shout this out) it is an imperfect thing most of it's imperfections stem from residual nationalism amongst it's member states. Like the characters in Deadwood who fight the formation of a United States they are out of tune and will be the cause of any possible conflict in the future. It should be possible, as grown ups, to monitor and check the excesses of a body that large - but the populace doesn't care and I don't blame any paper for that, I blame the individuals - not just in this country but across Europe. So they are turning against the union politically? And that's just to be taken as a given and not challenged is it? Human tho it is to respond in uncertain times, by clinging to old ways, and to look for scapegoats, it don't make it right. There is nothing happening that can't be addressed by fighting for the positive things - not by just shrugging when people turn nasty and saying "well, there is a reason". As for TLS and his lip service to his "wouldn't it be great if... but we are all tossers really", and picks on a TINY minority of streets to prove how the the "indigenous" population are swamped - it's basically scared, small minded bullshit. Us. Them. Minority. Scary words but what does it mean? And then he bangs on about it;s ok for the professionals but not yer working class. Well, fuck me for asking the obvious, but why should it be different???

Dear sweet baby Jesus Sometimes people get so worked up about getting the requisite amount of buzzwords into an argument that they lose sight of the reality Immigration as an issue has NOT been ignored by anyone. If for many people, including 2nd generation immigrants it IS an issue, then the question is with them to answer. "WHAT exactly is your problem???" - what's that? some foreign people are working with you? Because the people I hear complain MOST are the people who have jobs already. And something else... it's not something that escapes the (uh oh buzzword alert) "metropolitan middle class" because as well as the increasing number of people from abroad working in those professions as well, a LOT more of those jobs are leaving the country But to go back to the "normal" people who, poor mites, aren't being listened to. Well, it was them that went to European building sites in the early 80s. It was irish versions of them who came to England later. It has always gone on and wil lcontinue to go on. Just because the music has stopped and the party is over does NOT give anyone, no matter how fucking poor the right to turn on the less familiar faces in the room. Here is a newsflash. Maybe the people in power aren't completely wrong. Maybe too many "normal" people have double-standards, sit on their ass, use prejudice as a catch-all get out and basically need a reality check. We are all on this planet together and any "us" and "them" is backward.

You are correct Atila - when you said in no way does that suggest I should do one. It is in fact the very model of reason, respect for other's opinion and clearly anyone who thinks otherwise has a vendetta. Silly me. And even though it's "TOO FUCKING BAD" for me, it appears that people are getting on your case. Funny old world...

Atila - come on - you are on the same high horse that got you in trouble the first time - and no amount of people suggesting you calm down worked then either. If anyone calls your post the other day (see below) a spittle flecked rant they're well within their rights because that's what it was. Not only was it that but it pretty much tells anyone who disagrees to "do one" So the question you ask "how dare you", I'm pointing it back at you.. Atila's reasonable post in full "I see the word revenge being tossed around as if revenge against such barbric and heinous crimes should never be considered. Well I tell you what if I was unforunate enough to be in the shoes of the parents of the students butchered by those evil bastards, I'd want them to suffer EXACTLY the same fate inflicted upon their victims. Yes it's revenge yes it's tit for tat yes it's an eye for an eye and I've no problem with that at all. I'm F**king sick and tired of all the naval gazing that goes on today, we hear so often about the pontification of the liberal bleeding hearts who bang on about the rights of the criminal and F**K the victim, ENOUGH, ENOUGH, ENOUGH. I ain't no F**KING christian, nor do I believe in any other doctrine, but I certainly ain't prepared to turn the other F**KING cheek. Now to all of you who are anti capital punishemnt accept there are more & more people who want it brought back and the numbers are growing. IF THIS MAKES UNCOMRTABLE READING TOO F**KING BAD. Kill the c**ts and have done with them, pieces of garbage that they are. I make no apology for my views. "

Knock yourself out Tony. Go flag wild... I promise it won't change my opinion of you in any way