Sephiroth

"I took it as the usual dick-swinging from the UK" This is an element. But I also think "this government continue to underestimate ALL of the logistical, cultural, political, economic challenges" is way underpriced

"Is the UK Gov planning on breaking the agreement and forcing the EU to insist that the ROI enforces a border on the island?" yes Is this despicable and irresponsible? Yes

Alan!!!!!! Even mardy me hasn?t had a twitter ban. What did you do?

"But surely that only applies to Labour leave voters. Tory leave voters could vote for their natural side." well yes, in this election But that makes non-tory leave voters worse - because clearly brexit NOW will be shaped by (waves hand at whatever this government is) as they were always going to be elected in this election. But just as Corbyn fans (not saying Cat is one) imagined He would win ( I know, I know), they imagined their own version of brexit But even then - tory leave voters have to accept there will come a time when they won't have power - and then (waves hand at whatever the opposition is now) will be doing a lot of things they won't like Basically all leavers on all sides could only see the (mostly imaginary) benefits as applicable to them, and dismissed any Actually Very Serious downsides

"The longer term 'concept' was of importance to many leavers (myself included)" but again the longer term concept is irreconcilably different amongst many leavers - never mind Remainers. Therefore it will forever be a mirage and never a remote possibility. That's the problem that most remainers see - apples and oranges are different fruit and people will have their own preference. But leave vs remain is Unicorn vs Dog(or cat, according to preference) It's profoundly irresponsible

"Can you expand on this please..." I know many people on the left and on the right (and in the centre) who voted Leave (neither side can see the problem with leaving and The Other Lot getting in) So I don't think Cat is unique or needs to expand much - to me it just reads that people all had their own reasons for leaving It's why so many insist "I know what I voted for" - but rarely acknowledge that might be for very different reasons to other leave voters (I think Cat has said they do acknowledge this in the past tbf)

Another view re Mifid 2: https://citywire.co.uk/wealth-manager/news/eu-targets-post-brexit-london-in-shake-up-of-mifid-ii-research-rules/a1321186 Specifics aside - I would say that in the 2 and a half years, the EU have consistently been significantly way more prepared and serious than any UK govt in discussions. They understand the impacts better and are better prepared And all I'm seeing from the UK side now is even more bluster

?Project fear? they screamed at us

Gove confirming today that barriers and tariffs will very much be ?a thing? All those hours trying to convince leavers that would be the case and was always going to be - never to be recovered

Imagine by the time it?s finished it would be a bridge between two eu countries that will no longer be part of the uk

Every single post from Cat has that Passive aggressive ?I look forward to the stream/ posts/ etc? So disagreeing amounts to just another chance to say ?ha. Just as I predicted? Anyway. Your post. It?s just a variation on ?who needs experts? isn?t it? Most people don?t know much about trade it?s true. But we can aggregate a bunch of experts across a range of fields who have a solid consensus. ?Brexit will be bad? Many of us don?t like having to apply, not register, to continue our lives. I know you are an exception But here is who I think you are. On the ?clever scale? you are solid. Steady. But you fancy yourself a bit In the dead of night, you too worry about all of this. You worry about how chancers like Johnson can so brazenly bet the house on this But you are an oppositionist. A reactionary. And given the poor standard of ?leaver? expression on here you have taken it upon yourself to be the bigger fish in a small pond in the mistaken belief it will make you look better But it doesn?t. You?re pushing gear. Drug addicts are victims. But the pushers usually know better. They are the real problem

"oh, did you ask me for supporting evidence?" That was me - you didn't respond you didn't respond either when I answered your question about fishing CiWF don't seem particularly convinced the UK has the high and over EU on animal welfare? https://www.ciwf.org.uk/news/2016/03/compassion-explores-the-pros-and-cons-of-brexit enforcement standards appear to be an issue but that is true of many lawas anywhere - not sure what, specifically, about the EU, and leaving it in particular, helps with

That?s neither true nor relevant

Glen I?m don?t live anywhere inside the m25 My local mp is a hardcore ERG And your list is bobbins http://ilovetheeu.co.uk/trade/no-the-eu-does-not-fund-companies-to-move-jobs-out-of-the-uk/

I'd be interested in reading more about that Jules - any good links?

Just to add - there is nothing arrogant about Barnier/the EU setting out their wish list in these documents - it's standard OP surely? Even if the likes of uncleglen think it's clever to call him "Barmier" But I wouldn't worry - because we have been repeatedly told we hold all the cards and we will have all the deals the day after we leave

"do you disagree about the statement re EU fishing ?" short answer is yes I disagree. Longer answer is access to fishing waters was ALWAYS going to be part of negotiations and the UK has basically given up most of it's leverage. This was always the case but anyone who pointed out was told "project fear" - along with everything else The UK is free to tell the EU to bog off - it just won't be very helpful to us . And this is all just a tiny taste of what's to come, not just with EU but with US, China, India etc Plus - most of the UK catch is sold to Europe anyway. We need access to that market unless we are all going to start eating the fish and bits of fish we currently don't like What else? Oh yeah - fishing is worth basically nothing to our economy compared to most other sectors and yet still people are getting their knickers in a twist

I don't know how anyone could want to be on the same side as uncleglen - if I was a leaver I would be mortified with some of the stuff he comes up with And to be fair to him, the airwaves are full of people equally deluded

Larry Elliott has been a Lexiter for years and years - that makes him as much of a fantastist as the right wing Leavers If you were him, what good comes from brexit if it's controlled by a right wing government for years and years to come? Similar applies in reverse - if you want to implement right wing policy, you have little business allying yourself with someone like Elliot It's still all British/English exceptionalism Other countries are able to take a reading of the pros and cons of the EU, as well as other shifts in global power as well - none of them are reaching the same conclusion ans left or right wing british leavers Why does anyone think that is?

Ian: I would argue the combination of hubris, plucky Brit mentality, classic bad management but blaming external factors are all bound up with Brexit Freya: you can repeat nonsense all you like. No one is saying all leavers are racists. No one. But racists who want foreigners out have latched on to Brexit as a means to and end. Can?t really blame remainers for that. You never see racists post letters saying ?this is England. We want English spoken here but leaving the eu isn?t the correct time or method for this. Let?s stay in a one world government eu project and kick em out that way? I?d say you were in denial - if I thought you were real. Which you might be. Either way. Bad look

I believe you citylover So where do you get notions of ?one world government? from?

You can accuse me of many things. Lack of elaboration isn?t one of them But I?ve listed many points today - as part of my elaboration exercise Perhaps address them? I try and address anything leavers post But your most recent post says it is remainers fault that racists post racist things without any evidence to back it up other than ? we aren?t even smart enough to realise? That makes zero sense

I?m beginning to think Freya is a satirical account at this point Because to believe a real person could write that and believe it beggars belief

Big thanks to ianr who contacted me to point out my post on Norton Motorcycles contained duplicate links rather than the second one being the story of their collapse. Now rectified. (Even if the evidence points to no one caring in first place. Apart from Ian ;-). )

Believe me - we want to hear any good reason for this. Ever reply from a leaver is there for all (and history) to see But facts remain facts. And the cost far outweighs any benefits And no other country feels the way England does It?s possible England have this right, and everyone else from Ireland to Germany via Poland has it wrong But how likely is that? Seriously?