Sephiroth

Because leavers couldnt be accused of the opposite - denying anything is to do with Brexit All just a larf to some people innit. Just a larf No amount of evidence or people telling them how it directly affects them, no amount of news from Ireland, no amount of the 3 other uk countries withholding consent from English government last week - none of it penetrates.

It?s not just withholding. It?s the denial of the truth. Watching the chancellor this week leads me to believe he doesn?t understand. They aren?t withholding so much as completely oblivious. People say remainers are stuck in 2016. But it?s the government/leavers/daily mail etc repeating the same old ?they need us more than we need them. Car manufacturers. It will all be great? from the last 4 years despite it being demonstrably untrue. And of course come february it will be al ?see. Everything is fine? when we all know its a transition period with no deal looming against a self imposed December deadline

Northern Ireland alone and johnsons lies about it should give you a clue as to which way

Various extensions have allowed the country to continue with status quo. Business ramp up warnings and start lay offs but country remains in denial. Once transition is over then it will be in you. Glory or chaos

Can has been kicked down the road by governments. I don?t recall anyone predicting chaos after the election or triggering article 50 I stand by the chaos when Brexit happens on current trajectory. Ie end of Dec with little to no deal

Transition period. No one is expecting anything to change next week. As you known

Selling fruit from a stall isn?t exactly hard, is it? Happens across every country in the eu Do they have martyrs too? I fear petty English local authorities far more than I fear any edict from the eu

Imagine thinking a bunch of arseholes deliberately and knowingly leave off metric measurements as being somehow representative of a country under occupation Could they sell using pounds and ounces. Absolutely. How do other countries survive such oppression. I keep asking the question. But it isn?t oppression is it foxy. It When uk decides its own rules (briefly) there will still be maggots trying to make a point and buck the system and they will be prosecuted then too. Those metric martyrs aren?t oppressed. They are dickheads. That?s the story (Wrote the above based on memory of events. Rereading the article foxy posted I?m even less sure what he?s upset about. It?s more about bumbling uk authorities than it is eu as far as I can see) This was the case I was remembering https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk/2002/feb/18/2

English doddery old men banging on about rule from afar when the 3 other nations in the UK only this week rejected the governments WA, only to be ignored Repulsive

The ignorance on display from foxy is breathtaking None of what he says is remotely connected with reality But let?s ask the question anyway. Why would countries like Northern Ireland and Scotland vote to remain if what he says is true?

People seem to be pinning hopes on ?the trade deal? Boris has ruled out extension - so no trade deal or very bare bones But even with all the time in the world, uk won?t get a trade deal as good as it has now. It just won?t happen. It doesn?t have the leverage. And other countries won?t have it

"drop the pessimism and sign up to moving forward going forward. (or some other phrase)." incorrect - when people face up to the reality of what this entails, then we can start coming together. As long as leavers continue to live in denial there is no hope. What you call pessimism and doom mongering is reality

I don?t know most people on this thread I wish we could just go back to blaming ?cliques? Simpler times My tuppence: The thread is the thread. Points were raised. They remain of interest to enough people. Calling for the thread to be closed down is misguided. Threads die when people lose interest and move on. As it should be

I said at the time in 2017 that Corbyn and his supporters took all the wrong messages from that result - it was shortly after the referendum and many remainers were willing to believe he would fight for remain. By the time he begrudgingly came up with his "neutral" 2nd ref offer earlier this year he had aggrivated leavers and remainers alike But more than that, we had an extra 2 years to assess him - and it was not good. Basically inept on most matters, his handling of anti-semitism saw many people simply unable to vote for him Basically - he should have gone after 2017

Godammit Cat!!! malumbu - that wouldn't have worked - as Labour lost more to Labour Remain voters Than Labour Leave voters. With Corbyn in charge after 4 years, Labour were never going to get elected But the problems keep mounting for both parties - As Cat says, unless they change the way the leader is chosen then I can't see them getting out of this hole As for the Tories - they have a load of Labour Leave voters on the promise a) they get it done and b) invest in their communities. It is possible to argue that Johnson will deliver on both of those - but not at the massive expense of many traditional Conservative voters who will be aghast at the massive borrowing required to facilitate

That?s two points I agree with The Cat on in as many days. Well...

"Removed by Admin" Something is up tonight. This isn?t right. This ain?t normal

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Don?t think the Green Party have form on this. you?re so tribal that anyone who criticise the Labour Party is a Tory. ? You are still picking and choosing. I addressed all of this. Nothing tribal here. I hate Corbyn and won?t vote labour But voting green just enables one of Johnson or Corbyn more power. One of them will win. The trick is to prevent both from a majority. Voting green won?t help that (Brighton excepted)

I don?t think Hemingway is voting for either of the main parties. But like I said, one of those parties is who we will get so we have to find a way to deny both of them power. And that CAN mean voting for one of them to deny the other. WITHOUT Wanting either to win but if everyone repulsed by both parties just bites green/indie/etc then the risk is one of the main two gets a big majority. Suboptimal It all totally sucks. But we don?t get a choice as to where we are. Only where we go

"Standing up against racism is not Virtue Signalling." I completely agree - which is why I never accused you of it for that reason I agree with pretty much everything you are saying about Corbyn and his handling of the Labour Party. I applaud the likes of Luciana Berger and all the staff who have testified. I want Corbyn, and his cronies gone. But this is an egregious statement - "Cleary anti-semitism doesn't matter to you.". You have no basis for making that comment whatsoever. You are lashing out and you need to take a breath You say people are equating institutional racism in the Labour party and Johnson's "remarks". But it goes much larger than that doesn't it? The party of "go home vans". Last week we had them saying "enough of EU citizens thinking they could call UK home" . the party which has Tommy Robinson supporting them. The party where the well of golf-club racists vote Tory because they know The tories are getting an incredibly easy ride over their racism problems in comparison. You must realise this? I'm not saying this to say "go Labour" - I'm not voting for them. But you are being completely one-sided "many British Jews are actually terrified about a Corbyn Government" is a true statement and is unnaceptable. They won't feel safe until Corbyn and co are gone. I believe them (equally it's worth listening to many British jews who aren't afraid and continue to support Labour) The whole thing is a shitshow. But you are only calling out one side. That's where I targeted the "virtue signal" comment. Once again I 'm not disagreeing with you about anti-semitism

Whichever way the vote goes, we will have a deeply problematical prim minister, with plenty of ammunition against both with regards to racism Voting for greens (or whoever) as a way of protesting is fine - but it won't stop one of those 2 becoming prime minister We have to decide which would be worse. That's the brutal choice. It isn't possible to vote to allow Johnson to be PM and not be responsible for his repugnant views Nobody gets away with a clear conscience here - we just have to choose the least worst And by targeting ONLY Corbyn as a racist leader, I would say people leave themselves open to accusations of virtue signalling

"Meanwhile.. Labour voters and Corbyn fanclub members up and down the country, desperately trying to convince themselves and others that a vote for Labour is a vote against Brexit. Utterly delusional!!" It's a bit of a rock and a hard place. the only route to potentially allowing the country to choose not to proceed with Brexit is via Labour policy. There is no other route But as we can see, Labour themselves don't believe in it, won't campaign for it and so would we really get anywhere? There are still not enough leaders spelling out clearly the problems with leaving - too many people still believe it's a benefit and not a shitshow. I know many people won't change their mind (eg The Cat) but the whole thing is so finely balanced it doesn't need many people to have changed their minds But even tho Labour is the route to that possible reversal, you have to get them elected (a red flag for many) AND trust them to deliver (I don't) But what options do we have

"And name me one successful UK nationalised industry" Isn't a better question - why do you have to put UK in there? Because outside the UK there are many - some of them own UK privatised industry Why can't the UK be successful at it?

"That's right.. I voted for Blair and what did he do ? He sent British Troops to die in Iraq in an 'Illegal' war." Not to support the war in anyway but Majority of uk voters were behind that war after the war they subsequently voted him back in again A democracy doesn't function by wondering how any single voter thinks - its partly a summary of how everyone thinks