Sephiroth

?All you want to do is sh-t on anyone who doesn't agree with you.? Not true. Brexit isn?t some intellectual disagreement. It?s a fundamental rift with serious real world outcomes. Notable in your repost was no attempt to address Northern Ireland for example. You can tell me to f@@@ off all you like But the problems caused by your arrogance won?t go away. And that?s nothing to do with my opinion

The fact that you would repost all of that from 2016 despite the last 3 years doesn?t really show you in a good light tho. At least actual racists have their racism for voting leave The thing about leave voters is they continue to project this air of ?noble cause? that just doesn?t exist anywhere else really. Sovereignty. Immigration. Blah blah blah Why don?t the Irish, the French, the Portuguese (etc etc) care about these mighty principles in the same way? Why don?t they come up with the same ?solution??

None of them can possibly facts until they happen But given their are a reasonable compilation of predictions of what will happen - it?s no longer a case of remainers ?just being emotional? The question remains - if these predictions happen (and it?s reasonable to assume they will) what then? What does the country do? What do the people who hand waved us away say? I?m fed up of us driving towards a wall only to be told I?m being alarmist

Quite so Jenny I imagine they would form a coalition just to spite us. But it?s all just a game to them. None of this is real. None of this has any root in reality. And when the reality bites they will blame us. Spineless.

I did read the article earlier today. But it contains nothing to make me optimistic about the future of this country

And you think of this country goes down that road it will be good for the ordinary joe do you?

And somehow you think this will encourage her and others to give uk a good deal?

If you can read that redacted document and only see short term ?downsides? I fear for your sanity Speaking of facts - regale us some more with all of the upsides now! Oh and also - if these working assumptions published turn out to be true what will you do then? It won?t be take any responsibility will it?

Also I get the very strong impression that a document covering problems highlighted would be (and probably was) longer than 5 pages So who knows how much has been missed. I see the reacted refinery stuff has come out as well this evening

Just last week on this very thread Lou was accusing me and others of doom mongering and we weren?t basing anything on facts. And yet here we are

where "Apparently " = the usual nutcase weird sources. Cummings? I'm calling BS on this interpretation

And another good read here https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2019/0907/1074437-backstop-brexit-boris-johnson/ I have no idea where people like Louisa and keano get their info from. But it?s very very wrong

Ginger beer huh? Sounds suspicious to me ;-) You back in the country or checking in to see who is still around?

Away from the childish behaviour of the government, some grown-ups are doing some terrific work trying to make any kind of sense of all of this Chris Grey in particular has been terrific and here is his latest. I?d be interested in forumites thoughts https://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2019/09/johnson-bulldozes-britain-deeper-into.html

Said with zero irony. Marvellous. Keep it up Tederick

Like Mogg, teddy thinks his bubble humour will translate It doesn?t

Honestly I sometimes think it?s because this country has pushed the idea of being subjects rather than citizens for so long, that they have such a weird deferential forelock-tugging attitude to posh voices ?Thus us cluuurlay an affront to democracy? ?Ooh ?ee?s right yknow!!?

Better than nothing is still a paltry thing The backstop was welcome - but what is the point of leaving the eu if we are still subject to all the same rules without any influence over them? I could live with it up to a point, but leavers? The same ones who would take to the streets if we remain? Nah

Could you be more limp Lou? If you feel uneasy go and visit countries who have second referendums and resort back on how unhealthy and undemocratic they are Mogg said in the radio a couple of days ago that problem with a second referendum was that it WOULD overturn the first. Is the Democratic will of the people NOW can not be listened to You cling to this corrupted notion of ?democracy? like the old couple in Raymond Brigg?s ?when the wind blows? holding on to the government pamphlet telling them their nuclear shelter will protect them Democracy isn?t a single point in time and then never again. That?s what dictators do

Ha. I did say compromise with insanity was no good. But as a general rule compromise can be very effective (hello Northern Ireland border) Smokers aren?t going to single-handedly take the country over a cliff! (Although I?d be interested in a Venn diagram of referendum voting and smoking habits ;-))

With parents who both smoked since they were pre-teens I am as anti smoking as anyone Anytime someone suggests pubs are struggling because of the smoking ban, I bristle Like Shosh, I also hate the sudden invasion of smoke from cigarettes when I?m outside However. Where we are now feels about right in terms of tolerance. Smokers have lost a lot of ground and pay through the nose to continue their habit. I?m inclined to leave them well alone. If smoke is bothering me now I just move. I think they have done their bit

Basically it needs every living citizen who thinks leaving in any capacity will leave us worse off to be more vocal in saying so. The more people who do that the more the window shifts to it being possible Pretending there is some compromise with insanity is no good to anyone

For what it?s worth, I remain extremely pessimistic Firstly - no deal is still the default. Johnson still has to request and eu still have to agree to any extension. If I was then I would wonder ?why bother? We said don?t waste the time 6 months ago but the state of ye!? Secondly, everyone rah rahing about last night but that was all about democratic process, and included many many non-remainers. Leaving with some imaginary beneficial deal is still the most many people are hoping for.

Using language like ?fixated on? is pretty weird - it?s the path of solution in other countries. Other countries which have survived such crazy ideas But using words like compromise makes you feel warm and cosy like you are the sensible one when all it means is you haven?t understood the problem. The problem is still the lie that the people can just leave the eu with no major problem. And that can?t happen no matter how much pretending you do There are no easy solutions but I?ve already outlined mine. Remaining is the best option as it immediately stops the clock ticking. There is then no external pressure. All we have to deal with are angry leaver voters. But and here?s the thing. They will remain angry if we leave with a deal, with no deal or remain. So we have to deal with them no matter what I would revoke now and skip referendum given the time constraints. I would tell Leavers the idea isn?t abandoned but before we can address leaving again they have to organise, define what kind of shape leave they want and agree on it. Then that could feasibly be out to a referendum at a future date But that?s just too logical. So proceed as you see fit. No deal, deal a la may - whatever. But listening to Brits butch about it for years to come with severely diminished rights and powers , you can be the one reminding everyone ?but it was a compromise!!!!?

If you think mays deal, where the uk accepts eu rules but has no say in them, will placate leavers and heal wounds you are even more deluded than I already think you are