Sephiroth

He does. He gets called a remainer a lot but he has a history of wanting out of eu. After Maastricht he just felt the price wasn?t worth paying. Now it?s done he is happy to not rejoin but favours close alignment with all that entails Which is of course anathema to most leavers and their cheerleaders in government If Boris goes down that route his government hits the rocks If he goes down his current route if no alignment/no deal then his government hits the rocks As ever the same problem is reality. And no one ?on that side? has faced up to it yet. They can jeer that we are out of the eu and people like me aren?t facing up to reality. But that?s just whistling in the dark.

Let?s look a Remain voter who ?changed their mind? over Brexit. Did a review of his business and though actually Brexit would be good for his business https://news.sky.com/story/norton-motorbike-boss-brexit-has-kicked-us-up-the-backside-11662637 Fast forward to this year. Oh dear https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/30/taken-for-a-ride-how-norton-motorcycles-collapsed-amid-acrimony-and-scandal Positive thinking and government support (necessary because of said positive thinking. No point addressing facts) only get you so far Can?t help thinking it will serve as an allegory for the whole debacle in years to come

Quite so, DR And Cat is by some distance the closest to smart on that side of the debate on here in 2020

You are being lied to. By your own government. But the problem is you don?t care Until people care about being lied to this is all futile. Dangerous. But futile

Other things Johnson has done Weeks ago banging on about his ?oven ready deal? over and over This week - constant government sources disputing everything about the deal. Raab lying on the telly this morning about European court of justice being arbiter in disputes not being part of the agreement. It?s there in black and white. We can see it

Let?s take a look at Poland. Wonder if they are looking to leave the oppressive institution of the one world government eu Hmmm. Would appear not Poland, Kantar poll: European Union membership referendum Remain: 94% (+6) Leave: 6% (-6) (5% don?t knows excluded) +/- vs. 21-22 December 2017 Fieldwork: 29-30 January 2020 Sample Size: 1,000

City lover?s language is very indicative of someone who has gone balls deep into Facebook and conspiracy theory websites ?One world government? I ask you People like Cat will pick people like me up on tone, but when leavers spout absolute nonsense, they would rather take a compliment and thank them than debate their position

?A vote that counts? It only counts if what you voted for gives you what you want. And there is zero sign of that If the only thing you want is leaving the eu, then fair enough. But if you want to leave the eu for any significant reason then no. Your vote won?t count because it isn?t based on reality. The cons outweigh the pros. And no amount of voting or positive thinking will change that

There was a reason Britain joined and that reason has if anything, intensified So this leaving business will cause a lot of problems, to be sorted out later after we rejoin Well done everyone

"It's kind of fun seeing the bile and ranting here and elsewhere from remainers. How dare those pesky thick racists piss on our chips!" this does seem to be the predominant emotion amongst leavers - imagine doing so much harm for such a petty reason

"Do you think the lack of a plan 4 years later has anything to do with remain leaning MP's trying every means possible to disrupt brexit?" not a single thing.

The vote happened 3+ years ago but for the umpteenth time you can vote for whatever you like - it doesn't mean it's deliverable. And whatever is delivered is going to be less than what we have and by definition unable to please all leavers If the government promises to deliver on a referndum about (say) divorce then it can do that If a government promises to deliver on a referendum to give everyone in the country eternal life - it can't deliver that - even if 99.99% of people vote for it A tiny majority in this country voted for massive ruptions on the promise of easiest deal in history I'm not pretending it didn't happen. I'm not pretending we aren't out of the EU. I'm not trying to argue old points - I'm simply restating the facts that haven't changed. Voting to leave the EU brings with it enormous consequences and hard choices that leavers haven't even begun to face up to yet

Once leavers can agree what they want then perhaps then they can ask Remainers to get on board As things stand they are still a very loose coalition of competing ideologies, which will lead to open hostilities as soon as the hard choices to be made come to pass Nothing has changed - apart from us being out of the EU. All the problems are still the same and have yet to be addressed. I think Cat knows all this and is actually a bit nervous

"divided we fall." well you've made sure the united kingdom falls by simple fact of pursuing brexit, Scotland and NI will be no longer part of UK within 5-10 years

?maybe more neoliberalism, cheap labour, tearing the fabric and traditions of it's members countries? ? I mean you are hardly without an agenda here. And you obviously see the eu as some root of these things But if you think the eu is going to be LESS any of those things in the coming years outside the eu, you have a rude awakening ahead

The eu in 5 years will be much as it is now As will all the meme we countries. I will go back to Ireland and they will all be getting on just fine thanks for asking. They will be pissed off about the British border because despite being repeatedly told you would need one you arrogantly yet constantly said otherwise. Where will the uk be in 5 years time? Looking to get back in to the eu but with a higher price to pay I reckon

"tie" is a very vague concept these days. regardless he will have to find away around it because he will know what happens to the country if he doesn't get an extension as for the food standards thing - many people love to handwave that away with "if it's good enough for the americans" etc But it isn't just about the end product - it's about the lack of animal and welfare standards which require the chlorination for example. Many of the leavers I know are big on animal welfare so it's hard to know how it all squares

What do we think will happen when Johnson requests the 2 year extension?

? Regarding 'If I was a leaver I would also ponder why, if it was such a good idea, other countries aren't picking up a similar baton'- this is an easy one, they simply don't understand what the EU project is about? Only England eh? The sheer, total arrogance of it

Fine arguments exD But have a look at that ?we? in foxys question. It?s all down to ?us? and ?them? He never answers questions about why other countries don?t see the same problems he and other leavers do ?Us? ?Them?

"So what can you do....just argue on the edf I guess..." you can imagine how that makes me feel well - you can do more than imagine

Cat Isn't this the problem? A) it wasn't an election. the outcome was much more serious and other countries would probably build in a super-majority requirement to change the constitutional affairs of the country B) we might not be experts in economics or trades - but we can all read or absorb the message from the people who are. And that message was clear. But then you had people like Gove saying we have had enough of experts So yes - I think it is unacceptable It's the same as the climate change - you have vast majority of scientific data saying it's real and a few outliers saying it isn't - so people seize on the outliers and say "there are two sides" Sometimes there isn't. Not equal sides anyway If I was a leaver I would also ponder why, if it was such a good idea, other countries aren't picking up a similar baton

same is true with the other EU members - still don't see the problem. And neither do they. What is it about england that has it's bee in a bonnet about all of this?

KK - cheers - I think Cat was being cheeky rather than literal. My first instinct was to correct them but felt a bit nitpicky secondly - you think I'm a she? Clearly not everyone got the SeanMacGabhann/Straferjack memo

The Times front page today is a good example of why people like me and others on here won?t let this go Because not only is the idea itself very bad, what?s driving it is worse Does the times know the difference between the EU and the European court of human rights? Yes. Does it know the difference between Luxembourg and Strasbourg? Yes But there needs to be a narrative of ?them? all the time. Even after we leave next year it will still all be baby whining about other countries not giving us what we want. That?s all this has ever been But it?s very dangerous to keep fanning the flames of ?them? - we are heading to a bad place and I?m never going to stop calling it out no matter how many ?look we can agree to differ but let?s be reasonable? types try and blancmange it away