Neat summary of the EDF fave topics - The Times today (Lounged)

[Asset]

Farkin Hell, Spangles has irritated me more than once with her skewed view of the world but this just takes the biscuit. And no, I don't give a fuck what you say in response.

EDIT: changed my mind and didn't fucking bother

[Bellenden Belle]

Well said Asset. Couldn't agree more.

How a light hearted article can lead to such bile being spewed from Spangles mouth is a mystery to me.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Women get broody, it's natures/God's way of ensuring we procreate. I have 4 kids and I was still getting broody until my granddaughter was born in January.

The optimal time for conception and pregnancy for the health of the woman and the baby is when the woman is in her mid 20's. Again not much we can do about that.

Medical advances have made it possible for women to delay childbirth while they concentrate on using their energetic 20's and 30's for other things, eg building financial security. Women's pay is reduced significantly in comparison to men's with every child they have, so delaying childbirth in this society may seem like a sensible thing to do for any woman who wants financial independence.

But, IVF does not match natures natural selection race of the sperm to get the strongest and healthiest embryo, and the quality of women's eggs rapidly decline after the age of 30. The procedure itself may have other hidden long term health consequences for children conceived this way, and for any children born to them.

This will not change any time soon for the mother's of ED or anywhere else until we address the gender pay gap, and the financial disincentive to have children early.

Our peak in fertility coincides with our peak in energy for a reason, but in this society, employers want to suck all that energy from you and when you start slowing down, then you can go and try to produce the next generation of workers.

I don't think we can blame mothers of ED for wanting to have children at any age. It is one of the strongest drives we have, but we can blame this society for making it so difficult to do it the way nature intended.

[Ganapati]

Just to add to what Chav says--men also need to see themselves as part of the older parent phenomenon. Unless we're advocating that women go off and have children on their own, I don't see how men never seem to factor in to these discussions. It's not just that women have wider ambitions now, and that we have more choice of what to do with our lives including pursuing a career, but that all of our society wants to put off, for lack of better expression, "growing up." How many men do you know want to have kids in their Twenties? Even if a woman is ready (as my friend was) that doesn't mean the man is a willing partner. Of all the typical yummy mummy middle class educated couples I know, only *one* woman is in her twenties (late), and her husband is 10 years older. He was "ready" to have a kid in his words. I think the problem these days is that women and men may be physically at their peak to have children in their twenties, but no one is mentally ready until their thirties or later. Let's also not forget that men's sperm quality declines as they get older too.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

"Let's also not forget that men's sperm quality declines as they get older too." - especially after a all the binge drinking and partying in their 20's!

[lozzyloz]

Hmmm, so lets just summarise some of the points made above:

1. Its better to have cafes just serving fry ups rather than add a couple of Cafes in ED that provide more choice and source healthier ingredients.

2. Sequinned cushions and tealights are an anathema best left in Clapham or Islington.

3. The return of a real Butcher (and Fishmonger) to compete with Sainsburys and Somerfield is a giant step backwards.

4. A sharp increase in drug dealers to the growing middle classed has caused mass hallucinations where people see 9 sets of twins in 30 mins, or perhaps the same set cruising up and down the lane.

5. Basic staples like bread are only available in organic olive form at ?5 a touch.

6. Penny Chews are no longer available to the original ED residents that still cling on to pre decimal pennies (no doubt with Quenn Vic's face on).

7. The move of Walsh the Glazier a few hundred yards to Shawbury Rd has changed the face of ED forever.

8. IVF should only be given to woman as a kind of prize if they come through a serious illness like cancer and survive.

9. Selling your home in ED and capitalizing on the increased equity caused by the area being desirable and the marketing of ALL estate agents is OK as long as you declare your deep hate for Foxtons who've only JUST arrived in ED.

I think I'll go and donate some sperm in Forest Hill. They might need it to compete with ED!

[*Bob*]

I loved the bit about the house which used to belong to an old friend - an taxi driver's son. A one bed fleapit hovel, built on the crappiest street in town - now on sale for EIGHTEEN MILLION POUNDS would you believe it?!

Oops, I exaggerated. You know - so it sounded a bit more spectacular.

[talfourd]

Spangles30,

I think that your fatalistic attitude to life is quite extra-ordinary. I completely agree with *bob*, your application of religious views towards the real world seem to be driven by your haughty moral judgement of the circumstances, rather than a stric adherance to the dogma that you claim to believe. It is unfortunate that it is under the thinly veiled guise of religion, that you have taken to publicise your ill-conceived, badly rationalised point. I think it is people like you that are increasingly alientating people from what should the loving, considerate and benevolent embrace of the church, with your contemptable self congratulatory sound-bites. What does your "priviledge" even mean, have you even stopped to think about that? I don't know if you have children, but would you give them up without a fight? Then why should others resist the chance to fight for having their unborn children? by the same rationale, we should resist bone marrow transplants, organ donation and medical treatment at large.

As advances in science open our eyes to increasingly complex moral and ethical dilemmas, it requires a great deal of considerations, as individuals and as society at large as to the right way for us to proceed. You spectacularly manage to miss any intellectual worth nor assistance in this debate by your argument.

Diatribe over.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Hullo chaps

Just to try and smooth things over. I think the argument used by most religious objectors to IVF is not the fact that it is medical intervention but that in the placing of several fertilised eggs in the womb, invariably other fertilised eggs are destroyed. Many people believe that life begins at conception, therefore this would be seen as killing.

This is not a judgement call on anyone out there, merely a belief held by many people who are not nutters but genuinely think that is the case. I am not saying this to open up a can of worms, neither am I proselytising, neither does this need to provoke a moral/religious debate. I think where this is strongly felt then no exceptions can logically be made, however sad the circumstances, eg, after chemotherapy, which is perhaps where Spangle's argument fell down.

In all things I think we need to respect each other's views and beliefs without ridicule. It is often tritely quoted but I do think this may be the right place to remind us of the quote attributed (rightly or wrongly) to Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Just re-read this post - should have done that first. I see Spangle's objection is to 'manufacture' of babies. Sorry to confuse the issue; I should have kept my nose out.

[Elfy]

I agree wholeheartedly with Ganapati. We are always hearing about how it's a woman's choice to follow their career and have babies in their 30s. I'm a woman in my 30s, if I had turned round to my boyfriend at the age of 25 and said; 'right let's make babies', he'd have run a mile. The decision to have a baby is both a man and a woman's. It's not only women who are delaying the baby-making.

[snorky]

apart for my tendacy for abusing strangers on the street and my predlicition for calling people nazis , I should have been a journalist.

I dont read teh times, but if Janice is representaive of this lot, then we our society is in a worse situation that I thought.

lazy, smug, derivative cobblers.

[Brendan]

There you go having a go at the cobblers again.

They are an important part of the East Dulwich economy and some of the long term independent retailers trying to survive in the face of the tsunami like onslaught of gentrification.

Like wot this lady in the Times has been talking about.

[mockney piers]

It was a little reminiscent of the nappy valley article a while back, but at least there was the intention of making some generic points, even if the east dulwich thing was thinly veiled.

But it was was an entertaining enough lighthearted article even if it did prmopt my eyes to roll in a pavlovian response to mentions of tealights.

If she'd have dared to use snorky's patented 'cookwank' I'd have been much more impressed!!

For a moment there I thought Janice Turner was a pseudonym for Louisa.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

cookwank?

[Nero]

I have just Googled the word 'cookwank' and got just two entries. One by Snorky, the other my Mockney referencing it. It's great and I shall be spreading it around as I love words and new words even more. Nero

Cookwank

[Keef]

Spangles30 Wrote:

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> 3) A posh butcher and deli opened, replacing the

> cheapo ones bankrupted 12 years ago by Somerfield.

For the record, it was Sainsburys, and it was more than 12 years ago. Also, they weren't cheapo butchers, they were normal butchers like any other butcher of the time.

ChavWivaLawDegree Wrote:

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> "Let's also not forget that men's sperm quality

> declines as they get older too." - especially

> after a all the binge drinking and partying in

> their 20's!

Sh!t

[TillieTrotter]

There but by the Grace of God go I....or somemat like that.

[Alan Dale]

Vik Wrote:

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> Janice Turner lives in SE5 on the SE22 boarder, so

> is deffo on about ED.

So she actually lives in Camberwell. I expect she calls it Denmark Hill Village too.

This thread looked like it was going to be really interesting when Maurice asked Chav to justify spending her whole life in state sponsored accommodation but then it went down the alternative and equally controversial IVF route.

Perhaps there should be another thread CWALD...

[Maurice]

Yes that was conveniently overlooked. Probaly best. My views on subsidised, public owned housing wouldn't go down a storm with most.

[Ganapati]

So what are your views on subsidised, public housing Maurice (curious not baiting)?

[Alan Dale]

You think council houses are for layabouts and scroungers don't you Mo?

[Maurice]

As stated I'm 100% behind giving housing help to the truly vunerable and key workers. However, I do not believe it is a right - especially for generations. We've created a culture of dependency and it sometimes actually makes it difficult to house those who really need help.

The one that gets me is three and four generation families who spend most of their time complaining for improvements. 'My family has been here four generations and we demand better!'. I think 'why have you been there four generations?'

[Alan Dale]

You got my hopes up but I don't think that is particularly controversial.

How about this- If law graduates need subsidised housing then who doesn't?

I'm all for funding someone's education but not as an end in itself. Time to get that training contract CWALD and get on with the rat race...

[downsouth]

Goodness. I can see this one turning quite ugly. I am ambivalent regarding social housing. As has been said before for this economic model (i.e. the UK) they ought to be for those in need. There are a number of folk him live in them who could well afford not to. They are not means tested after the tenant has moved in and to me it is unfair.

I also don't like how people can 'acquire these homes' but I shalln't say anymore on that topic.

I know that on the continent things work slightly differently but even so if folk wish to rent then it should be done privately as we don't have enough homes/space to provide social housing for all. If we did I wouldn't have an issue about it.