re

[Mark]

Maurice Wrote:

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> I always believed my neighbour smoking on cigs or drinking was far less likely to kill me for cash

but he's more likely to hurt you if she's pissed, in nearly half of all violent incidents (that's about 1.25 million), victims believed offenders to be under the influence of alcohol. And your neighbour was drinking and smoking whilst driving you might become one of the 3,000 people who are killed or seriously injured each year in drink drive collisions. Then of course there's the ?5 billion of tax payers money spent every year treating those with smoking related illness which isn't killing you for cash but is killing themselves for your cash.

And addicts tend not to be the people who are violent, it's the people who are supplying them who have the most to gain from taking advantage of the illegal market who use violence. Your neighbour, if she was a smackhead is more likely to break into your place to rob you which isn't that same as killing you for cash, which I can appreciate is an easy generalisation to make if you read the Daily Mail or similar.

[Maurice]

While I don't read the Daily Mail, I don't think such sweeping statements help inform an honest debate. While I know you and your small brigade of truly enlightened thinkers have arrived at a level above the masses of people in this country, you might spare a moment to help us on our path.

My honest understanding of crack was based on conversations with police who used that exact phrase. It went something like this: 'we don't worry so much about ectasy of a Saturday night - those folks are loved up and not going to cause any problems. It's the crack - where men will kill their own mothers to get the next fix, which we worry about.'

Is that an urban myth bought into by the millions and millions of us ignorant masses beholden to your highly evolved intelligence?

[snorky]

Its down to dopamine Maurice - some drugs stimulate the production of the bodies opiate :dopamine - coke based products are esepcially able to kick off this part of the CNS and thus the pleasure aspect of it - carck is especially goot at locking into these parts of the brain and often changing their structure to create a physical dependancy to coke/crack.

[annaj]

Dave, I think you're right there has been a lot of opinion and some misinformation on this thread.

Don't want to sound like forum mum, but thought some objective information might be useful.

This is a summary and doesn't include every possible effect of every drug. Obviously, people react differently to drugs depending on their frequency of use, other drugs and alcohol used and their state of mind before they use, but this information is a general guide.

Cannabis - Class C durg. Not physically addictive, but psycholgically habit forming. Effects range from a mild buzz and giggles to feelings of detachment from reality and hallucinogenic effects. Risks - Mouth and lung cancer (in part because of tobacco smoked with it), reduced fertility in men and women, reduced ability to concentrate and learn new information. In the last few years more evidence has emerged suggesting a link between cannabis use and mental illness, in particular schizophrenia and depression. The exact nature of the link is not yet clear, it may be that cannabis triggers mental illness in people who have a predisposition anyway, or it may be that when people start to have symptoms of schizophrenia or depression they try to cope by using cannabis.

Speed - Class B drug Unless prepared for infection then class A. Highly physically addictive. Effects increased energy and feeling awake and chatty. Risks - prolonged periods of sleep deprevation, come-down feelings, high blood pressure - potentially leading to heart problems. Over longer periods of use paranoia, depression and psychosis. Can cause death.

Ecstacy - Class A. Not physically addictive. Effects feeling happy and relaxed. Enhanced appreciation of colour and sounds. Feeling 'loved up'. Risks - Ecstacy is unpredictable and often cut with other drugs, some people die suddenly after taking only small amounts. People forget to drink causing dehydration, but also ecstacy interfers with the way the body stores and excretes water, so it can also cause overhydration and dangerously low salt levels. This can lead to collapse and fits. Can prevent the body from regualting temperature and cause overheating. Can provoke heart problems and asthma. Can cause death.

Cocaine - Class A. Highly psychologically addictive. Effects feeling a rush, feeling confident and powerful, increased energy. Risks - incresed temperature and pulse rate. Fits and breathing difficulties particularly if used with alcohol. Increased blood pressure, stroke and heart attacks even in young, healthy people, but more likely in anyone with a pre-existing heart condition. Can cause death.

Heroin - Class A. Highly physically addictive. Effects a buzz followed by feeling relaxed and calm. Reduces phsyical and psychological pain and suffering. Risks - supresses rate and depth of breathing and can stop breathing completely. Can cause vomiting whilst also relaxing the muscles of the throat and reducing gag reflex so vomit can be inhaled into the lungs. Injecting heroin can cause local infection to the skin and veins, which can lead to infection of the blood stream and heart valves. Blood clots on the deep veins - DVT. Sharing needles and other equipment can lead to transmission of blood borne viruses - HIV and hepatitis. Can cause death.

If you want to know any more have a look at http://talktofrank.com it's a good site, not just for kids.

Amanda, your honesty and determination to change your life are admirable. You should be judged on your policies and actions now and not your past. Good luck.

Edited because assest pointed out an error - thanks

[Mark]

Maurice Wrote:

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>... blah, blah, blah (I can't hear you) blah blah blah ...your highly evolved intelligence?

Shame, I brought in facts, you just insult. No really worth trying to help explain things to some people is it?

[Asset]

I would argue that cocaine is not highly physically addicitve, psycholigically addicitve yes. Does it cause a physical withdrawal when use is stopped? Heroin, alcohol and nicotine do.

[annaj]

Asset, you're right. It was a typo - I've changed it.

Cocaine is very habit forming, but there are not physical withdrawal signs.

[Maurice]

This is fact?

Your neighbour, if she was a smackhead is more likely to break into your place to rob you which isn't that same as killing you for cash, which I can appreciate is an easy generalisation to make if you read the Daily Mail or similar.

No dear Mark, that is elitism at its worst (or is it best?)

I'm genuinely perplexed on the crack thing. My understanding is it was a scurge on the African American community leading to massive crime and cruelty. Many even suggested it was used to keep the community down and/or cause violence. Perhaps more Daily Mail drivel.

[Asset]

Why is that the case though?

I know a couple of people who have tried it and neither of them have gone on to become mental crack addicts.

[Brendan]

I hope this can answer some of your questions Maurice.

Different drugs of have different levels dependency and these dependencies form for different reasons. You can?t therefore have a blanket approach to all of them and say ?Well crack addiction is the same as alcoholism.?

I agree with the idea that prohibition is probably not the answer if only because by wrestling the drug dealing revenue away from the gangs we would solve so many other social ills.

When it comes to heroine and crack (there are other drugs that are as addictive but these two seem to be the biggest social problem at the moment and are often used in conjunction with each other because of the way they counteract each other) the physical dependency and withdrawal may be comparable or even less than that of physical alcohol addiction. The difference being that it takes around 4 -6 years of heavy drinking for the human body to become physically dependant on alcohol and some people are more susceptible to it than others whereas it can take only a few months to become physically dependent on heroine or crack. This will have to be recognised and addressed if it is legalised which I doubt is going to happen any time soon.

Psychological addiction is a different and more complex business and can be relatively benign or very dangerous depending on the individual and the drug.

[snorky]

as I said maurice, crack is instant and highly addictive due to the nature of its chemical makeup

there has been an urban myth about the CIA introducing crack to kill off the black underclass - in reality, it was the dealers cutting out the middleman of the process involved in cooking coke to heighten the hit.

Addiction , as I have mentioned is something you have / you dont have - the physical drug is just a symptom/ a key.

[Mark]

Yes it is a fact Maurice, heroin addicts tend to feed their habit with petty crime such as shoplifting rather than murder or manslaughter.

And sorry, I don't really understand your elitism comment.

[spadetownboy]

annaj Wrote:

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> Asset, you're right. It was a typo - I've changed

> it.

> Cocaine is very habit forming, but there are not

> physical withdrawal signs.

use of cocaine does lead to withdrawal issues.

[Asset]

physical?

[bignumber5]

Not so much physical, but psychological of physiological origin (odd sentance, I realise).

Going to go for a science-type post, hope I haven't misinterpreted what we're looking for here!

Neuropsychopharmacology: I'm reading up a lot of this stuff at the moment, so may be inprecise in my detail, but I will try to make sure it's accurate before posting...

To be totally technical for a second, the main effects of of cocaine are by stimulating a specific neural pathway that is involved in a pleasure response and it's associated benefits (the mesolimbic dopaminergic reward pathway, if anybody is marking this).

A short way of summarising the withdrawl is that over-stimulation (taking cocaine) leads to an element of tolerance, then stopping means under-stimulation, so all effects of stress amplified. This isn't that it's hard to quit or purely psychologically addictive, but that withdrawl gives specific effects of under-stimulated pleasure and relaxation centres in the brain.

Additionally, cocaine has agonistic effects on the sympathetic nervous system - causing raised heart rate, constriction of blood vessels, increasing the basal metabolic rate (the "up" and energetic feeling; the likely cause of the association between cocaine and heart disease/stroke and raised temperture that Annaj mentioned). There are some studies regarding withdrawl that suggest that when the cocaine is stopped, the opposite effects will occur such as faints from a drop in blood pressure, inducing an even greater stress response, so rebound palpitations etc. are not inconceivable either.

Obviously, it wouldn't be very ethical to do any of these studies on people so rats seem to be the standard method of investigation!

If I've gone too technical then pls let me know. Hope this is useful.

bignumber5

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

If we are talking about addiction rather than recreational use, I know a lot of people who have had drink and drug problems and would agree with Maurice that crack is really in a class of it's own. It doesn't get you first time or even the first 20 times, but when it does it generally takes over your life very quickly.

You can be a functioning addict with heroin and hold down a job. Same with alcohol, cocaine and skunk, but it is very rare that someone who has a crack addiction can hold down much in their life.

One of the scary things about crack as well is that it seems to have some kind of long-lasting effect on your endocrine system. Crack addicts have a very fast adrenaline reaction and people I know who have managed to quit still find this to be the case for years after they have become clean and are scared about sparking off. It seems to ease off eventually, but it takes years.

Crack has been around for as long as coke, but it used to the addicts who cooked the coke up with bicarb back in the old days and it took a certain amount of knowledge and experience to do, so was not as widespread. They cooked it to make it easier to smoke and stronger.

Now it is readily available already cooked up and is so quick to access (just like all that crap we can buy from McD's) so it's easier to smoke more, in a shorter period of time.

I don't agree with prohibition of drugs, I think they should be licenced and taxed, to help pay for proper rehab, but I am a bit squeamish about crack and a new drug over here called crystal meth which is a suped up amphetamine and seems to be as destructive as crack in the US.

The reason new and more potent drugs are produced though, I think, is because there is a lot of money to be made by big time criminals, and we may have to bite the bullet and licence them all in order to remove their power. I would expect the money made from tax to be used for pro-active outreach though as well as in-house rehab, because unless we are serious about tackling the demand, we will never manage to reduce the supply.

[Michael Palaeologus]

Sadly the standard laws of business apply.

Sell the raw materials and make some money, refine the raw materials and make SO much more.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

So true.

[mockney piers]

I remember reading an article on crystal meth about 15 years ago, how it was causing real issues over in hawwaii, am amazed it's taken so long to get here.

As a slight aside on whether or not crack is worse than anything else that has come before it, I found this book an absolutely fascinating read about the politics and reporting of new drug crazes, the fear struck into the middle classes by sensationalist reporting and the political capital to be gained from it.

It is of course talking about Gin!!

Well worth a read http://www.amazon.co.uk/Craze-Gin-Debauchery-Age-Reason/dp/1861976704/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196733094&sr=1-5

[*Bob*]

Excellent point, Mockney.

Fear of the new / unknown - sometimes, of course, with good reason.

I remember when Ketamine first appeared and was initially shunned as a nasty, dirty little drug. Now it's just another staple in the clubbers arsenal (not mine, though)

Crack is now starting to be rebranded and sold as a club drug. "Clubbing Rocks", some are calling it. I wonder if those that try it will lose their jobs, their friends and their lives after trying it a few times, or if it will simply be absorbed as just another kind of hit on offer sometime between Friday night and Monday morning?

Chris Morris said it best in "Brass Eye"

"Luckily, the amount of heroin I use is harmless, I inject about once a month on a purely recreational basis. Fine. But what about other people less stable, less educated, less middle-class than me? Builders or blacks for example. If you're one of those, my advice is leave well alone. Good luck."

[lozzyloz]

I was thinking of setting up a drugs workshop for the uninitiated in a small side street of Coldharbour Lane. Sadly the thought of Maurice high on crack has put me right off.

I'm open minded about whether or not all narcotics should be legalised. I've seen both sides of the drug culture and need to be convinced that the resources currently being used to stop the black market in drugs can be usefully deployed to educate people of the real dangers and support those that do become dependent. Sounds like a good idea but knowing governments it would just become another revenue generator. The government has always been involved wiith drug dealing. Today it's Alcohol, Tobacco and licenced Pharmaceuticals. In the past it was Opium.

[spadetownboy]

bignumber5 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not so much physical, but psychological of

> physiological origin (odd sentance, I realise).

>

> Going to go for a science-type post, hope I

> haven't misinterpreted what we're looking for

> here!

>

> Neuropsychopharmacology: I'm reading up a lot of

> this stuff at the moment, so may be inprecise in

> my detail, but I will try to make sure it's

> accurate before posting...

>

> To be totally technical for a second, the main

> effects of of cocaine are by stimulating a

> specific neural pathway that is involved in a

> pleasure response and it's associated benefits

> (the mesolimbic dopaminergic reward pathway, if

> anybody is marking this).

>

> A short way of summarising the withdrawl is that

> over-stimulation (taking cocaine) leads to an

> element of tolerance, then stopping means

> under-stimulation, so all effects of stress

> amplified. This isn't that it's hard to quit or

> purely psychologically addictive, but that

> withdrawl gives specific effects of

> under-stimulated pleasure and relaxation centres

> in the brain.

>

> Additionally, cocaine has agonistic effects on the

> sympathetic nervous system - causing raised heart

> rate, constriction of blood vessels, increasing

> the basal metabolic rate (the "up" and energetic

> feeling; the likely cause of the association

> between cocaine and heart disease/stroke and

> raised temperture that Annaj mentioned). There are

> some studies regarding withdrawl that suggest that

> when the cocaine is stopped, the opposite effects

> will occur such as faints from a drop in blood

> pressure, inducing an even greater stress

> response, so rebound palpitations etc. are not

> inconceivable either.

>

> Obviously, it wouldn't be very ethical to do any

> of these studies on people so rats seem to be the

> standard method of investigation!

>

> If I've gone too technical then pls let me know.

> Hope this is useful.

>

> bignumber5

you could summarize it in 2 words "the crash"

cocaine use does lead to psychological and physiological withdrawal symptoms. it is also one of the biggest killers drug wise, as use of cocaine leads to cardiac arrthymias ie abnormal heart rhythms which in turn if not treated develops fairly quickly ie minutes/hours into full blown cardiac arrest, with prolonged use of the drug the risk of this occuring increases.

[LizzygotDizzy]

Wow Spadetown, am seriously impressed, I would have placed (intraveneously taken rather than smoked) heroin as one of the highest killer of all drugs, learn something new every day didn't think Coccaine was up there at all.

[bignumber5]

spadetownboy Wrote:

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> you could summarize it in 2 words "the crash"

> cocaine use does lead to psychological and

> physiological withdrawal symptoms. it is also one

> of the biggest killers drug wise, as use of

> cocaine leads to cardiac arrthymias ie abnormal

> heart rhythms which in turn if not treated

> develops fairly quickly ie minutes/hours into full

> blown cardiac arrest, with prolonged use of the

> drug the risk of this occuring increases.

Risk of cardiac arrest in prolonged use is secondary to coronary vessel spasm WHILE USING. Related ischaemia can cause a whole number of arrhythmias. This is slightly different to the arrhythmia in withdrawal, which is classically fast but not life threatening, although I doubt it feels any better if you're having it.

[Jah Lush]

I have a friend who nearly died from a cocaine induced heart attack. He'd a had a three gram a day habit for quiet some time but thankfully, it was the wake up call he needed that made him stop using.