It's 4.30am and the heathrow flight path appears to be in use

[fabfor]

No we don't. One's better so hopefully it will all be discussed as above.

[wavyline girl]

If anyone has any doubts about the level of air traffic, maybe they should come round now and look out my window.

It has been constant since the early hours of the morning, one plane isn't out of sight before the next one comes over.

The noise is continuous at peak periods.

Fabfor,I have written to my local mp (Harriet Harman)about the issue.

I can't find the email address you mention, so I was unable to send you a copy.

[hpsaucey]

Had the same - been up since 5:30 (not because of planes just up early) but know they woke my eldest... Some really loud ones around six as I was sitting on the balcony - not good a plane spotting so can't say what they were). You'd certainly be raising your voice (not shouting quite) to have yourself heard by someone next to you)! I have a fairly clear skyline for abour 180 degrees of sky so can see them coming in just about constantly from the E/NE... We're east wide of Peckham Rye Common. I was interested in the other thread's thoughts about the variations within localities as perhaps a partial explanation for the widely varying 'experience' the noise they generate.. Where are you wavyline girl??? HP

wavyline girl Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If anyone has any doubts about the level of air

> traffic, maybe they should come round now and look

> out my window.

> It has been constant since the early hours of the

> morning, one plane isn't out of sight before the

> next one comes over.

> The noise is continuous at peak periods.

> Fabfor,I have written to my local mp (Harriet

> Harman)about the issue.

> I can't find the email address you mention, so I

> was unable to send you a copy.

[edcam]

We definitely need at least 2 threads about this.

[ianr]

And a windsock.

[jimmyraj]

@hpsaucey - we're near Copleston Road / Choumert Road and it's particularly noisy - mainly because it seems to be on the curve of where they bank into the Heathrow approach from the south and often seems to be when they're putting down the flaps to slow, so I assume that generates some of the extra noise over this area.

[Sue]

wavyline girl Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If anyone has any doubts about the level of air

> traffic, maybe they should come round now and look out my window.

> It has been constant since the early hours of the

> morning, one plane isn't out of sight before the

> next one comes over.

xxxxxxx

We were in Horniman Gardens today between 5 and 6.15pm (dawn chorus walk) and at one point you could see about six planes in the sky at once in various places and at various heights, including very low :(

[fabfor]

Hi guys, it's heartening to see that we share the same experience of this noise nuisance. Wouldn't it be better to have just one thread though? Since the other thread is more active, perhaps that should be the one?

I'm not admin on here so these are just my thoughts.

Either way, I'll try to copy your posts to the other active thread-"aircraft noise, have your say"; wish me luck...

[fazer71]

End this thread

Click this

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,649585 link for the Aircraft noise - have your say... thread

[fazer71]

Ah the thread has been removed.

Monday 24th March 2014

Zero noise this morning Heathrow operating easterly preference.

Lovely quiet start to the week.

[www.flightradar24.com]

Yesterday Sunday was constant absolutely awful westerly preference.

Must find out what has changed since Nov 2012.

[fazer71]

Reposted from Aircraft noise - have your say...

Brockley meeting. 18th March 2014

I attended.

Heathrow were there ?but not the air traffic control people? they did a long presentation of aircraft data with a nice PowerPoint lots of charts satellite images and flight path data with images from webtrack.

Brockley Forest Hill and East Dulwich in the worst bit a joining circle of highest noise.

At the end of the presentation Heathrow view was nothing has changed since 1998 ?other than an increase in the landing approach height for some aircraft.?

Residents from Forest Hill and Dulwich Village also attended and surprisingly others from Coulsdon which is way out under the holding stack zone.

Heathrow admitted they?ve had a big increase in complaints since Nov 2012

?It?s also my experience that is around the time I noticed noise levels had increased becoming intense and intrusive in East Dulwich so no coincidence. I?m not the only person who?s noticed so I?m not going Mad ! phew?

Heathrow have absolutely no idea why people are noticing the noise more than prior to Nov 2012.

It is very odd that the complaints have increased after the END of the trials.!

SO It?s a mystery for Heathrow and for us.

Possible answers.

1. Webtrack data is wrong / inaccurate and the flight paths have changed. Heathrow stand by their data but can we trust it? (V possible)

2. Following the trial people have a heightened sensitivity. This is Heathrow?s current possible answer. IMO doesn?t make sense. (unlikely)

3. The density of the air over South London has changed more humid causing an increase in sound transfer. (V unlikely)

4. Some element/s on aircraft or engine design has increased the high pitch whistling noise. Heathrow don?t believe anything technical on the aircraft has changed. An instrument hole on the wings of the A320 is known to cause a whistling noise they are looking at shielding the hole to stop the noise. It is also possible the engine turbines on newer aircraft emit the sounds which annoy at approach speeds a noise the older jets didn?t make. It?s also possible that some other technical change has created the noise, a combination of elements. Also this may be a noise which falls outside the test noises which aircraft manufacturers need to control. (V possible)

Heathrow appear to be taking the post Nov 2012 noise increase issues very seriously they assured us they are working to find the cause and an answer.

They will put sound monitoring equipment in Brockley. (too late imho no data available for pre and post 1998)

In the opinion of the many locals Webtrack data is inaccurate or just not precise enough to show the changes. Heathrow say you can?t compare Webtrack with looking in the sky as the human eye can?t judge how high and how far away the aircraft are. (umm V possible)

Some believe Webtrack data has been tampered with they don?t trust Heathrow.

V possible as there?s no independent data. Heathrow have everything to gain by tweaking it.

Quite possible Webtrack doesn?t show that the flight corridors have narrowed since Nov 2012 causing noise in certain areas to be amplified, resulting in consistent constant noise in the same locations for those residents (reflection from hard surfaces amplifying noise etc) which may have resulted in the noise impact becoming more and more noticeable for those residents.

Something I learnt which is counter intuitive, a higher approach by a lot of aircraft is more noticeable than a lower approach, as the aircraft are more visible and the spread of noise is carried over a wider area, basic triangulation from a greater height. So the increased height isn?t better and may be contributing.

Overall quite frustrating for those of us who are affected and also for Heathrow (at least the bit of Heathrow who attended) as they don?t have an answer but they know something is definitely different.

[Sue]

fazer71 Wrote:

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> Ah the thread has been removed.

>

xxxxx

Maybe it's just been moved? Whole threads aren't usually removed?

[fabfor]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> fazer71 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Ah the thread has been removed.

> >

>

> xxxxx

>

> Maybe it's just been moved? Whole threads aren't

> usually removed?

I'm thoroughly confused. Which thread has been removed - surely not the most active one-Aircraft noise, have your say - where we've fought so hard for the right to be heard!?

[El Pibe]

Moved for one pointlessly tedious bumping update too many...I imagine ;)

Try to keep this one useful, or at least pertinent, and perhaps the naysayers should leave alone too, you never know, if these chaps manage to subvert 100 billion or so desperately needed public funds into building some airport in the thames estuary, killing off all the wildlife there, we'll all be greatful for the quieter skies.

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,649585

[fabfor]

But why move the more active one?

Admin, I request that we keep the other - if only to save us having to repeat the whole tortuous argument again, god forbid!

[fabfor]

HACAN Clearskies BLOG

Doing nothing about noise at Heathrow is not an option

Posted on March 24, 2014

24/4/14

by John Stewart

I?ve written about it before. But last week brought it home to me once again. Doing nothing about noise at Heathrow is not an option.

On Tuesday evening I chaired a meeting in Brockley, 20 miles from Heathrow in South East London. As I stood outside the church hall before the meeting started, I could hear a plane one every two minutes or so, turning to join its final approach path to Heathrow.

I saw the same manoeuvre taking place on the screen last Friday when I visited the headquarters of NATS (National Air Traffic Control) in Swanwick and. NATS are impressive. They run an effective, efficient organisation that, it must be said, has improved significantly since they were privatized. But the question I was left pondering was whether they are being asked to do the impossible at Heathrow. They are required to mange safely and efficiently over 1300 planes landing and taking off each day but also are keen to assist residents under the flight paths.

Which brings me back to Brockley. As I sat with the air traffic controller watching his blank screen light up with planes approaching Heathrow, nowhere shone more brightly than the dazzling white line of aircraft on their final approach path, many having joined 20 miles from the airport. More than one million people live within those 20 miles. Around a third of those ? the people living closer to the airport inWest London? get a half day?s break from the noise when the planes change runways at 3pm. The rest, like Brockley, get no relief.

And make no mistake the noise can be a real problem in those areas further from Heathrow. A report published by the respected acoustics form Bureau Veritas in 2007 found that in many of these areas ?aircraft noise dominated the local environment.? http://www.hacan.org.uk/resources/reports/st0699.pdf http://www.hacan.org.uk/resources/reports/hacan.flight.paths.study.pdf (summary).

Doing nothing cannot be an option. But my visit to NATS showed me that doing something is difficult. Quieter planes on their own won?t do it because the number of aircraft is the big problem. Steeper descent approaches would help somewhat. Predicable respite periods can be managed before 6am when there are fewer planes but NATS would struggle to introduce them during the day when they need to land as many as 45 planes an hour.

The most useful solution for ?the squeezed middle? ? those living some distance from the airport under the final approach path ? would be for planes to join the approach path much closer to Heathrow. The bright lights on the NATS? screens ? the planes ? would be shared around more equitably. The former Concorde pilot Jock Lowe, the man fronting the Heathrow Hub bid for a third runway, believes it can be done. NATS are not ruling it out as more of the precision technology becomes available.

NATS are more hopeful of improving things more rapidly for residents under the take-off routes. There is more scope for giving respite. Aircraft also have an increasing ability to ascend ever more steeply.

I didn?t ask NATS about the impact of a third runway at Heathrow. I didn?t really need to. If 480,000 flights a year severely restrict NATS room for manoeuvre, 740,000 would light up the air traffic controller?s screen with a brightness yet unseen. Wouldn?t they?

[StraferJack]

"Re: It's 4.30am and the heathrow flight path appears to be in use new

Posted by fabfor Today, 10:22AM

But why move the more active one?

Admin, I request that we keep the other - if only to save us having to repeat the whole tortuous argument again, god forbid"

If only someone, hadn't resurrected this thread in a desperate bid for attention, then the more active one would be still in play

[StraferJack]

Now who was that someone again...

Oh yeah.. Fabfor

[fazer71]

It doesn't matter which thread is kept active.

Most important thing is there is just the one from now on.

This http://hacan.org.uk/blog/ is a good read by John Stewart Hacan.

I still don't understand what happened after Nov 2012 ?

Sue Wrote:

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> fazer71 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Ah the thread has been removed.

> >

>

> xxxxx

>

> Maybe it's just been moved? Whole threads aren't

> usually removed?

It's been moved to the Lounge.

Avoid it stick to this thread.

[edcam]

fabfor Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> On Tuesday evening I chaired a meeting in

> Brockley, 20 miles from Heathrow in South East

> London. As I stood outside the church hall before

> the meeting started, I could hear a plane one

> every two minutes or so, turning to join its final

> approach path to Heathrow.

>

You mean they are in the sky and on routes that send them towards an airport? Whatever next?

[MissKing]

The planes are like tinnitus - they more you focus on them and feel annoyed about the noise, the more aware of the noise you will be. Also, like tinnitus, I doubt they will be going away any time soon either! I don't really give the planes a second thought and don't ever feel disturbed by them. They are there though - they keep my mum awake when she visits!

[wavyline girl]

Yes I agree MissKing up to a point -I have tinnitus as well!

I have just had an undisturbed nights sleep, then realised when I woke up that there wasn't the usual air traffic

filing overhead. Where's it gone? And good riddance?the longer the better!

[fazer71]

MissKing -- Comic tinnitus ... ffs

The aircraft noise is nothing like tinnitus it's like aircraft noise.

wavyline girl -- wind direction has put Heathrow into easterly preference mode so we won't get any noise until the wind changes a they go back to westerly preference.

Since Nov 2012 there has been a significant increase in complaints from those living under the flight path 10-20 miles East out from Heathrow they are looking at why the complaints have jumped so dramatically.

I believe it's because the flight path has moved, they insist that's not the case.

It's apparently a mystery ...

not like tinnitus but it may end up giving you tinnitus if there is another unexplained increase in noise.

[ally3188]

Sorry to add another potential source of angst into the mix for some of you, but you don't know how lucky you are down in East Dulwich. Up in Forest Hill we get the Heathrow planes as they bank around on a westerly wind, but no respite as with the switch to Easterly winds comes the arrival of the City airport planes, which though often smaller, fly in much lower, and are consequently twice as noisy in my neck of the woods. They fly in over the highest point for miles around, just so that any noise disturbance is maximised. The noise is much more distant down in E Dulwich/Peckham, i find (though still annoying for some, i'm sure)

[fabfor]

Found this on Hacan facebook page; from evening standard:

MP Zac Goldsmith launches movie contest over Heathrow expansion

Zac Goldsmith and Boris oppose 3rd runway plans

Matthew Beard, Transport Editor

A A A

Monday 24 March 2014

Tory MP and environmental campaigner Zac Goldsmith today launched a film competition to highlight opposition to a third runway at Heathrow with ?10,000 as the first prize.

In an escalation of the anti-expansion campaign, Goldsmith has also recruited celebrities to the cause with actor Hugh Grant and former Tory MP Giles Brandreth among the competition judges.

Entrants to the competition will be asked to submit a short film to highlight opposition to a third runway.

Shortlisted entries will be judged by the panel at a gala evening of 800 guests at the Richmond Theatre on 18 June with the prize money provided by Mr Goldsmith.

The competition is called ?No Ifs, No Buts?, recalling David Cameron?s infamous pre-election pledge made in 2009 to an audience in Richmond not to allow a third runway to be built at Heathrow.

The Government?s aviation commission has since shortlisted Heathrow and Gatwick as sites for a new runway and will make its recommendation after next year?s election.

Mr Goldsmith said, ?The competition is open to absolutely everyone, and will be judged on the night by a high- profile panel, as well as the audience itself. Among the submissions, I?m looking for some really powerful messages that will be taken up on social and conventional media, and ram home the message that Heathrow expansion is not only the wrong solution for our economy, it is politically undeliverable.

"A green light for Heathrow expansion is effectively a green light for a vast, foreign-owned and taxpayer-subsidised monopoly on one edge of our great city. It is astonishing that the idea is even in consideration, particularly given that freeing Gatwick from the BAA monopoly has worked wonders for the airport and its customers.

"We should invest in improving London?s surface connections, maximising rather than suffocating competition between three main airports. The Chancellor needs to stop being led by the lobby groups and think the issue through himself.?

John Stewart of anti-expansion group HACAN said: ?Many people are hugely disappointed that David Cameron has gone back on his promise not to build a new runway at Heathrow. This ?No ifs; no buts? competition can highlight that.?

Mr Goldsmith, MP for Richmond Park and North Kingston, has been a thorn in the Tories? side over Heathrow and has threatened to leave the party if they back a third runway.

In a council-run poll last May, almost three quarters of residents of Richmond, Hillingdon and Hounslow - some 100,000 respondents - opposed a third runway, However Heathrow said the survey was based on an outdated run proposal.

The closing date for video entries is 1st June.

More details about the competition can be found at www.no-ifs-no-buts.com