Incident Somerfields (Lounged)

[Marmora Man]

At 5.30pm today a man was being in Somerfields held by the Somerfields' manager, and two others. The man being held was, allegedly, a shoplifter and was not fighting. He was however punched, thrown to the floor and kicked before being dragged up again and thrown into the back of the shop with those holding him continuing to hit him while swearing and threatening him.

A few customers tried to intervene but were told that it was being handled by security. None of those involved were wearing any kind of uniform or identification as security.

Police were summoned by a customer and the manager and his "security staff" interviewed. Two customers gave statements to the police.

Shoplifting is wrong - but so is unnecessary violence.

[Louisa]

Sorry if this person was caught shoplifting how is it unnecessary to use violence against them? Maybe a pat on the head and a stern waging of the finger would be more suitable in your eyes?

Louisa.

[Jeremy]

But Louisa, it's not the place of private shopkeepers and security guards to administer their own punishment. They'd already caught the guy, no need to rough him up if he's not fighting back!!

[Marmora Man]

A proper arrest and handing to over to courts is generally considered better than giving anyone a good kicking.

Maybe I was concerned as this was the 2nd incident I've been involved in inside 24 hours. Last night on the Jubilee Line at Southwark station my tub journey was delayed because two football fans were fighting - a large one sitting on an older man, spitting into his face and threatening to kill him. I intervened, tried to calm both down and arranged for someone to call station staff. The remainder of the 2,000 people watched as I tried to stop the fight. I dislike violence and dislike even more passivity in the face of violence.

[Jimbob]

might make him think twice about doing it again, however it sounds like a bit of summary justice being dealt out and thats only acceptable for drink-drivers and burglars.

[Louisa]

I agree it is right and just that law enforcers should deal with such crimes as shoplifting, but equally it is about time the victim of the crime (in this case somerfield and their staff) should be allowed to use force to contain violence that may occur. We do not know the in's and out's of this case, perhaps the person involved was found with a weapon? Would we rather the security staff took a light handed approach and the person attacked innocent people shopping in Somerfield? Who get's the blame then if someone is hurt, the staff for not controlling the situation better. Sorry but a heavy hand in such situations works better than allowing the thief to get away with it.

As for the second incident MM, that is a completely different scenario and I commend you for stepping in to at least try and calm the situation down. I have been involved in such incidents and I can assure you I take great pride in helping people who are in trouble and cannot defend themselves. I do however believe it would have been better if transport police or security staff had been patrolling said train or station to prevent such an incident.

Louisa.

[EDmummy]

Ignoring some of things said here, if I personally saw a similar incident I would report the violence witnessed to the police. Last time I looked it was a democracy we lived in...wasn't it?

[Asset]

I cannot believe that the incident as described by MM could possibly be regarded by some people as acceptable. I hope the guy presses charges and the security people at Somerfields are punished.

[Keef]

Quite right. Reading that reminded me of some of the doormen I used to see in Liverpool. There are good laws in place now, but in those days the doormen were nasty thugs, and I saw them absolutely mangle a couple of lads just because they were a bit too drunk.

[Louisa]

I dont get this, how about we just put a sign outside Somerfield saying something along the lines of "Shoplifters come in and feel free to steal items, chances are if you are caught you might end up being arrested but only if our staff can be arsed to apprehend you because they dont like being heavy handed", ridiculous. Lad's getting a little tipsy outside a nightclub, as long as they have not been causing trouble inside the club, then that is obviously not good, but lets remember this shoplifter (if guilty) was on someone's premises taking what was rightfully not their's to take. If someone broke into my house I would not hesitate to grab a hammer from the tool box and whack them one. Dont steal from Somerfield, then there is no reason for the security staff to be aggressive towards you is there.

Louisa.

[seanmlow]

I am sorry I think this is an utter disgrace. Yes, the shoplifters were in the wrong. However, there is NO NEED to enforce such violence. They could have easily handled the situation without such brute force.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Shoplifters are always prosecuted these days, we have CCTV/Security cameras.

Companies have insurance to cover stolen goods. If a shoplifter is caught, he is taken to the back, searched, and the police are called. NO ONE has the right to inflict violence on them, only in defence ( if the shoplifter was lashing out) but swearing and hitting over edible goods? OTT and not acceptable.

What about old people who often walk out with goods they forget to pay for? or babies who don't know the concept of paying for goods? or menopausal ladies who forget to pay for things and dont realise until they get home? Even Winona Ryder the famous actress....should they all be handled with brute force since they have taken goods that does not belong to them?

Somerfield do not need to issue a sign saying " Shoplifters welcomed here" because every person knows right from wrong, and they know the law, it is like saying we should leave signs everywhere saying " Thou shall not kill, cheat, lie or steal etc" law abiding people KNOW this, but you will ALWAYS have those intend on breaking the law and that is where the police force comes into it. Security guards and Bouncers who like the authority of their job, do NOT have that right to issue their own punishment.

[will dex]

Hi, hate what these guys seem to have done to the shoplifter but can i clear up one big misconception:

Shops are not insured for any losses during opeining hours. Only after the store is closed. Its a bit like trying to claim on your insurance if you were burgled when you were in and had left the door open..

And please make somerfield M&S Simply Food Instead; surely this is reason enoguh now??!

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

will dex Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi, hate what these guys seem to have done to the

> shoplifter but can i clear up one big

> misconception:

>

> Shops are not insured for any losses during

> opeining hours. Only after the store is closed.

> Its a bit like trying to claim on your insurance

> if you were burgled when you were in and had left

> the door open..

>

> And please make somerfield M&S Simply Food

> Instead; surely this is reason enoguh now??!

Well the prices they charge , I doubt it will put a dent in their profits shame the fat cats don't pay their staff a decent wages!! i am surprised because I used to work for Sainsbury's when i was a teen, and the amount of losses they would have due to damaged goods and breakages ( which happened every single day!!) so I would have thought they would be covered for all of that including stolen goods!

[Louisa]

I totally disagree with most of what everyone has so far said. This person (and lets face it we dont know all the facts) could well have been handled with such force because they had threatened members of staff or other customers, maybe they had a weapon on them? How can you all say that it was too heavy handed without being in the situation the poor staff found themselves where they have to juggle the rights of the shoplifter to be handed over to relevant authorities, and the risk they may pose to others? None of us are in a position to judge. I am sure the security staff can use their discretion on the elderly person or mentally ill person who walks out without paying, and the devious shoplifter who makes it a living. I tell you one thing though, if I was a shoplifter reading this or seeing what happened in Somerfield, I would make sure I never stole from there that's for sure. Good on the Somerfield staff I say (if this was a guilty shoplifter).

Louisa.

[Rockets]

Sounds like by doing what they did the Somerfield staff will probably end up on the receiving end of an assault charge and probably lose their jobs and the shoplifter will end up with handsome out-of-court settlement so he will probably not have to shoplift for a while. Now, if only he had been resisting then they could have slapped him about a bit and taught him a lesson the courts would never do.......

[Louisa]

Rockets exactly, this is the type of attitude so many people around here take about crime, it makes me sick, until of course it happens to them then they come on here up in arms complaining. This person if guilty deserved everything they suffered and more in my eyes, sorry if thats difficult for some of you to stomach!

Louisa.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I totally disagree with most of what everyone has

> so far said. This person (and lets face it we dont

> know all the facts) could well have been handled

> with such force because they had threatened

> members of staff or other customers, maybe they

> had a weapon on them? How can you all say that it

> was too heavy handed without being in the

> situation the poor staff found themselves where

> they have to juggle the rights of the shoplifter

> to be handed over to relevant authorities, and the

> risk they may pose to others? None of us are in a

> position to judge. I am sure the security staff

> can use their discretion on the elderly person or

> mentally ill person who walks out without paying,

> and the devious shoplifter who makes it a living.

> I tell you one thing though, if I was a shoplifter

> reading this or seeing what happened in

> Somerfield, I would make sure I never stole from

> there that's for sure. Good on the Somerfield

> staff I say (if this was a guilty shoplifter).

>

> Louisa.

Marmara Man, said the man was not resistiing his arrest, so if he has a weapon on him, I dont think hitting him or swearing at him is going to remove the weapon do you?

Do you also really believe that shoplifters would be deterred from shoplifting from Somerfields because of what happened? you obviously dont know the criminal minds, they dont reason like that. Hence why in countries that have capital punishments, there are still crimes occuring every day!! Otherwise with the electric chair, gas chamber, hanging, stoning, flogging, prison, criminal records etc there would be NO crimes in the world.

Get real. If they reasoned like that they would not be doing it in the first place simply because it is wrong and against the law.

[jrthomas_uk]

Shoplifting is pretty despicable and probably deserving of a good kicking. All the shoplifters I've seen apprehended around here (sadly quite a few) are usually just being restrained until the police arrive. Therefore I'd summise there are a few facts we don't know about this case. I can't imagine a granny, child or menstrual woman would be taken into the back for a kicking because of something called discretion.

Like someone said, he's probably a repeat offender who gets reprimanded with a gentle ticking off by some namby-pamby liberal (like the scumbag who knocked my mates front tooth out in The Vale), only to head off the next day and do it all over again.

As for burglars, I'd like to bring back hanging for those b******s. Especially the one's who feel the need to urinate in your house and liberate women's underwear. And the Police! All the DNA evidence and they're just not interested.

I have zero tolerance or sympathy for criminals regardless of their circumstances. There is always another way.

I think I need to get out of London.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

So if it was a girl or a woman who was a repeated shoplifter, would it be ok to hit her also? after all, a shoplifter is a shoplifter!

[louisiana]

Louisa

A very high proportion of retail theft is by staff themselves. Do you also propose that Somerfields should beat up its own staff too?

There is absolutely no excuse for violence, if none is being proffered.

[Louisa]

HeidiHi, no offence but your attitude is the attitude of the type of person who gets laughed at in the face of the criminal. If people like you with your views did not exist, maybe we could actually punish these people more effectively without having the do-gooders standing outside court protesting and fighting the corner for the criminal. In my opinion it SHOULD be perfectly acceptable for a shoplifter (particuarly if known the security staff) to be handled with force and if necessary made to feel small and igsignificant. It cannot be right that a shop which is trading perfectly legally and within the law can find itself punished for the actions of a criminal - handled with force or not. Dont do the crime in the first bloody place, no sympathy for the shoplifter, every sympathy for the poor staff members who felt they were doing the right thing. This is why the hands of the police are tied so heavily in this country, do-gooders dictating what is right and wrong without accepting a person in the position is good enough to use discretion. Makes me sick to be honest!

Louisa.

[Moos]

Louisa, you stick to your point admirably. Can we put some boundaries around your view on what's OK? Would it be OK if the staff were accidentally to kill the shoplifter while beating him up? Or what about breaking a limb? Would that be OK?

[Louisa]

Louisiana, if Somerfield employ someone then it is down to them to contact the HR department and perhaps re-evaluate staff interviewing procedure. That is totally different from a stranger entering someone elses premises and stealing from them and expecting not to be dealt with in an aggressive fashion.

Louisa.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Unlike you Louisa, I am realistic, I know that beating up shoplifters would not deter other shoplifters. They are chancers, if they see an opportunity, they will take it, even if they risk a beating or prison.

Also most people cannot be allowed to use their own discretion as they tend to abuse their power of authority!