Is Alleyn's School a cuckoo?

[bawdy-nan]

Amelie - I thought the the Dulwich Estate was the land ownner - until relatively recently in its history known as Alleyn's College of God's Gift at Dulwich. The schools are the names beneficiaries of the estate. Interetsingly the original founding documents of the schools in question state that they were set up to serve "poor local scholars". Not, you might note, the sons and daughters of the mostly rather wealthy.

The schools are obliged to offer "public benefit" because of their charitable status which exempts them from paying corporation tax (and, because they are a school, I think, VAT). This is obviously a huge subsidy from taxpayers to suuport an institution that serves a narrow range of people, selected on the basis of wealth to offer an education which serves to reinforce their already enhanced social and economic position.

I recognise that there are more complex arguments around this issue and also that the pressure on the state sector would be initially unbearable were they to suddenly close - so therefore they are relieving some of the burden on the state to provide education.

I suppose I think that such organistions should sail slightly closer to their founding charitable documents and not becasue they are forced to rather because they are not for profit and could do something extraordinary and exciting.

[kristymac1]

Amelie Wrote:

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> The schools exist primarily for the benefit of

> their pupils, if they choose to make their

> facilities available to non-pupils they should do

> so voluntarily not because they have been either

> forced or subjected to threats.

The only threat fee paying schools face in this case is the loss of charitable status - I can assure you this is worth a great deal in monetary value to a school like Alleyns - and that monetary value is funded by the tax payer. I have nothing against fee paying schools per se (although in my education utopia, all state schools would deliver the best education and there would be no need for fee paying schools - sadly not the case). For what its worth I agree totally with Bawdy-Nan.

[matthew123]

Does it cost the British tax payer more in revenue lost because of Alleyn's charitable status - or does it cost the tax payer more to fund another public school of same number of pupils?

[intexasatthe moment]

shoshtosh " do we really care about fireworks? seriously? wow."

It was the noise and disturbance of sleep to a large number of people plus the arrogance/lack of awareness on Alleyn's part in causing this .

So yes I for one do care .Though the point Bawdy Nan makes has ,in my opinion ,wider reaching implications and is of greatewr importance.

[snorky]

Amelie Wrote:

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> The schools (Dulwich College, Alleyn's, James

> Allen's and St Olave's) are not major landowners.

> The Edward Alleyn Foundation is the landowner.

>

> I apologise for my spelling error, the result of a

> long day and sore eyes.

>

> The schools exist primarily for the benefit of

> their pupils, if they choose to make their

> facilities available to non-pupils they should do

> so voluntarily not because they have been either

> forced or subjected to threats. The persistent

> attacks on private schools in this country, which

> do a wonderful job, are unconscionable.

Post of 2009

*applauds*

[louisiana]

snorky Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Amelie Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The schools (Dulwich College, Alleyn's, James

> > Allen's and St Olave's) are not major

> landowners.

> > The Edward Alleyn Foundation is the landowner.

> >

> > I apologise for my spelling error, the result of

> a

> > long day and sore eyes.

> >

> > The schools exist primarily for the benefit of

> > their pupils, if they choose to make their

> > facilities available to non-pupils they should

> do

> > so voluntarily not because they have been

> either

> > forced or subjected to threats.

They should do so because they currently are entitled to charitable status, which enables them to make all kinds of financial gains from "the community". Charities are expected to work for public benefit, not for the benefit of a few self-selecting rich people.

[Moos]

What are the benefits of charitable status? Is it tax breaks?

[James]

The problem is that it is a false dichotomy to assume that anyone who criticises the idea of private schools is automatically attacking the schools themselves.

In my opinion there are a number of excellent private schools in South East London, including Alleyn's. But studies have shown that comprehensives in areas with high concentrations of selective and private schools consistently under-perform. Surely it's no mystery why this is...

So for me the issue is how to preserve the traditions and high standards of places like Alleyn's whilst broadening access for kids from different backgrounds.

[snorky]

Truthfully I dont give a shit one way or another - I certainly dont blame the kids for the school they attend, but some of the parents can be excruciating selfish narrow minded pain the arses - some however are normal people ( shocker! ). I wouldt stop people having the choice if thats what get them going, even if I do think it is a little sad

Like Private health care & Private universities - get on with it, but do not expect the vasy majority of the country to explicitly or implcitly subsidise of support your selfish choices. To argue that there is a wider social benefit to fee payings schools is one of the flimsyest strawmen I have heard in a long time, whatever convoluted justification you can dredge up to back it up

You are buying an advantage for your kids is the bottom line, accept that or not - there would not be a need for this school / its kind otherwise

[James]

Whilst I agree that the basic principle of private education is morally unsound, I would argue that when faced with a choice between a dreadful, failing local state school and a private school, it's not "selfish" to strive to do the best for your children.

[kristymac1]

matthew123 Wrote:

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> Does it cost the British tax payer more in revenue

> lost because of Alleyn's charitable status - or

> does it cost the tax payer more to fund another

> public school of same number of pupils?

Not sure this argument stands up really - I would rather pay more taxes to support a new state school delivering good, sound education and learning - providing immediate benefit to the hundreds of kids (all non fee paying) that would go there rather than the handful of bursaries awarded through the private sector..

[vallajo]

"As for Derek Fenner he was so hated by the pupils that the sixth form used petrol to born what they thought of him into the front law (4 letter word beginning with C). In the right light you can still see it."

This is highly inaccurate on several levels, and seeing as Derek Fenner is dead I'm going to speak up for him. For the record I was at Alleyn's when the incident occured and remember it very clearly. ONE individual who had sat all his A-level exams and was only a few days from leaving the school decided to turn up one morning in a pink suit (I think it was pink...). Fenner got a bit pissed off and sent him home. He retaliated under the cover of darkness by using weedkiller (it was not petrol and nothing was burned) to carve the aforesaid word into the lawn. It is possible that he had help, but it was not a concerted act by a whole swath of the sixth form who 'hated' him. A headmaster may not be loved unconditionally by all, but to say he was a figure of hate is overstating the facts.

More akin to hating the school would've been the actions of some of my contempararies there who took it further when they left and committed numerous acts of vandalism and one case of outright arson!

[Asset]

But studies have shown that comprehensives in areas with high concentrations of selective and private schools consistently under-perform

Maybe, but Charter secondary school, in the area, is in the top 10% of schools nationally for results apparently. So there is a viable alternative for the local population.

Obviously Charter would be even more over-subscribed if the private school option wasn't available as has been mentioned above but it's food for thought. More state schools is the answer.

[Amelie]

Sorry Vallajo but my brother was also a pupil at the time and that it is not what he told me.

[vallajo]

Me and your brother will just have to agree to disagree then!

[citizenED]

On a slightly tangential line, I think Alleyn's school is a beuatiful building and in that sense the school adds something in terms of architectural interest to the East Dulwich environment. There's a lovley photograph of the grounds and school on their website.

[Asset]

I agree Citizen, and it keeps all the green space around which would surely be carved up for development otherwise.

[She'llsurvive]

Charter School's exam results are here

Fine results for a south london school but not in the top 10% in the country. There are a lot of measures though, peckham academy is apparently in the top 10% on one measure.

[Asset]

OK, on looking at their website apparently it's something called 'Contextual Value Added', which is how far kids improve from entering the school until year 11, that puts it in the top 10% nationally.

[James]

Charter has a somewhat bizarrely polarized intake of the extremely affluent and pretty poor. I wonder if this has any bearing on the CVA scores?

I'm sure it's a decent school but it now has a tiny catchment area (about one mile I think) which shows that the government's strategy of creating a market in education is merely forcing more affluent parents to move near the better schools. As Charter improves further no doubt more of the places will go to parents like this, making a nonsense of the idea of comprehensive education.

What is the difference between paying for a private school through fees and buying your way into a decent 'comprehensive' by buying a house near it? Merely a self-righteous feeling of smugness, I would suggest.

[Asset]

I'm not sure that is strictly true, I think there is a fairly large proportion of middle income families at the school, judging from the kids I know.

I think there is something to be said for a small catchment area, it offers a sense of community. What's the point of having a large catchment if there's no room at the inn. It's not the fault of the population that there aren't enough schools to go round.

When I moved to Dulwich Charter wasn't really an option then, I'm just lucky that it is now and that my son can walk to school and that most of the kids he's there with live nearby.

I certainly don't feel smug but yes I feel fortunate.

[James]

Not crisicising you Asset - like I said, we all have to do the best for our kids.

What irks me though is the smug well-off people who send their kids to over-subscribed state schools (depriving poorer kids of places) and then look down upon those who go private as if they are somehow morally superior. In an ideal world all schools would be decent and free. But it's not an ideal world - so we all have to do the best with the options we have.

[Asset]

Exactly, more investment in schools and the teachers is the only answer. Nobody wants to pay more tax though.

[sillywoman]

James Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> What is the difference between paying for a

> private school through fees and buying your way

> into a decent 'comprehensive' by buying a house

> near it?

For our family, If we had done that, about ?250,000 (working on the rough cost of private secondary education for 4 kids against the extra value of our house in the catchment for the charter over that of our old house out of the borough).

It's a bit tortuous but I'm hoping you'll get what I mean?!

[alleynsstudent]

macroban i find this post so absurd that i have joined your site just to post a comment. alleyns school does contribute to the community, in the ways mentioned throughout this threat. furthermore it is a charity that raises on average ?9 000 a term for various charities. regardless of how you as an individual may feel about the school it has been in dulwich far longer than you have and there is very little you can do about it. if you do have a problem i suggest you take it up with our senior management rather than bitching about it on the internet.