mockney piers

"measures with teeth" - we invade Saudi? Not at all, but selling them electric cattle prods, that we have evidence are used in torturing prisoners, or shutting down investigations into corruption that result in selling them $40 billion worth of the most sophisticated weaponry in the world is hardly up there with taking action is it. "Malaysia already is a democracy" Indeed it is, but if an Algeria happened there I've no doubt that we would do the same. Be conspicuous by our silence when we know what is going on, share intelligence and continue to cooperate, when condemnation would be the honourable thing. Exactly like our tacit support of Israel's million odd cluster bomblets raining down on Lebanon recently. "but you cannot ignore that the ideology of Al quaeda is explicitly driven by hatred of our way of life, and is wholly intolerant of all the values of a liberal democracy". Maybe, maybe not. The thing is not to mistake rhetoric for reality. Or do you believe that Bush's express intention of his policies is to spread democracy? "In the long term the idea must be to detach this ideology from other conflicts, which is what I understand is being attemprted in Iraq." Exactly, that's what the proposals of dialogue are all about, about teasing out the rhetoric and addressing the local issues, seperately in places like Indonesia (where our support of Suharto's genocide wasn't even tacit, it was active!!). Every where another "al qaeda" atrocity occurs is not motivated by a desire for a global caliphate, but by disenfranchised people with real grievances. You police against it and talk behind the scenes. The rhetoric of "we shall never negotiate" a la Thatcher is not only self-defeating, it's usually completely untrue!! I've no doubt we'll be reading in the press in a couple of years time that we're already negotiating, leaving this entire argument pretty moot. *edited for money amount, $40 wouldn't get anyone very far

Daaaangerous. Have done it once. Didn't really like it, probably the absinthe that spoilt it for me. Good for bravura, bad for flavour.

I think I was pretty explicit about the rhetoric coming from both sides. What do you offer them? How about the taking measures with teeth against nasty autocratic regimes who routinely torture their own political prisoners. No coincidence that most of the attackers were Saudis. How about the possibility of real democracy in their countries, and perhaps not installing a bloody great military base in every country from Uzbekistan through to Saudi Arabia. It's very easy to paint the 'other' as bloodthirsty fanatics who hate 'our' way of life from either side of the fence. They clearly exist but most will (and al qaeda's really a broad banner term for local struggles) have deliverable aims. If Algeria became a democracy or Malaysia voted to be an islamic state (and remember we tacitly supported the Algerian Junta who persecuted a particularly brutal oppression after refusing to cede power to a democratically elected ialamic gov't) then perhaps these people would get parliamentary seats or an islamic gov't, and none of our business frankly if they did. How arrogant is it of us to stand in their way? There are many difficult issues need addressing, and there are no easy answers, but I refuse to see how a 500lb bomb on a wedding party, or a cluster bomb on a poor deprived neighbourhood does that more effectively than dialogue.

I read the book of Dave not so long ago. I really liked it. The satire stuff ran out of steam quite badly but the tale of Dave was very honest and quite touching.

On the subject of photogrpaphy I read Don McCullin's autobiography not too long ago. Very sad story all told, but no less fascinating and admirable for it.

If you like politics then thoroughly recommend Robert Fisk's tome, The Great War for Civilisation. After the last one you may want a more lighthearted read though. Have recently enjoyed Francis Wheen's How Mumbo Jumbo Conquered the World. Cerebus the Aardvark's very good too!

Wow BB, from burnt-fingered newbie to clique member, your journey to the dark side is complete ;-)

Well quite. They're also warning Iran not to intefere with the internal politics of Iraq. Hmm, a bit rich there. On a wider point Turkey might want to consider negotiation at some point; until the politics are addressed that war will continue indefinitely, a war which neither side can win. The British gov't and the IRA both worked this one out as early as the mid-late seventies, which is why negotiations were started tentatively as far back as that. Took along time to where we are today, but how much better is everyone for that? In fact some quite high profile think-tank types in the US are quite sensibly proposing starting dialogue with Al-Qaeda. The rhetoric of the 'war on terror' serves nobody but the extremists, whether a neocon hawk or the really nasty elements of terrorist/insurgents. There are always moderates with political ends who hold the centre ground, and it is with these that you have to negotiate.

Who'd be up for one of these babies!!! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7054120.stm

It's a pretty staggering figure still when you stop to think about it. That's 10 a day!!! It's surely time for something to be done about our reliance on the motor car. If MRSA was killing in these sorts of numbers then you'd probably expect the prime minister to have to resign; staggers me how much we just accept this. I've lost several friends to traffic accidents and only one to drugs. Tell me which is the real public menace!! ps you still shouldn't be cycling on the pavement, it's a bloody menace. Campaign for better cycle paths or getting rid of cars.

We did rugby at school, which was a modern comprehensive. The best sportsmen tended to be in both the footie and rugby teams. I made the rugby team much to my own chagrin as it condemned me to too many saturday mornings freezing to death on the wings with bob hope of ever actually seeing the ball. Alumni have gone on to play in the premiership, though none, as far as I know, ever made it in the rugby world.

Yes I spotetd that in your other post. Pretty neat stuff. Interfaces are the lost art of programming sadly. Too many people think they know what they're doing, and in my experience almost none actually do. In fact interface design should generally be kept away from programmers altogether and left to the psychologists and artists to work out, and let the coders implement them.

I didn't know whether music room or geeks room. Man plays Ghosts & Goblins theme on guitar. Bits of it are nicked from Chopin apparently!!

I know one of the Alleyn's Old Boys dines out on the time he played in the FA Cup. I don't think it was top flight stuff though.

Coool. Charlie, Halo3 is pretty good. The single player isn't too demanding, though it's can be so on the ludicrously hard setting. Also you can do it co-op which is nice. Playing the online battles can be a curiously depressing experience as you're shot up by 11 year-olds, agreed.

I tend to find a dose of middle england so scary my mind is known to shut down completely until I'm safely back within the confines of the north-south circular!!

Was that advice to mice about how to deal with cats?

Fun as it all sounds I can't say as I buy any of the total breakdown of society apocalypse scenarios. Things will change, and current model is unsustainable, but the whole head for t'hills is all a bit black helicopters isn't it. Even the black death didn't result in a societal breakdown, and man has not experienced a greater catastrophe (well, unless you actually take all that ark stuff literally ... weirdo). It did result in a pretty significant rise in the wealth, power and status of what we might now term the working class, so I can see why CWALD is so excited ;)

"if the majority of middle-England was looking out only for itself and would vote against any collective effort to address the situation by... " Why middle-england. Surely that's just 'the majority'. I think I said on here sometime ago that if there was one tree left in the world it wouldn't be a case of whether we could finally get collective action to protect it, but how many would die in the war to cut it own. Unnecessarily hyperbolic scaremongering I know, but I don't think the sentiment is too far wrong.

I think we've covered this topic before. Don't tell me, trouble in middle east too? Now, where did that catholic bear go?

I think this sums it up nicely Encyclopaedia of Decency: Working Class

"I vote Clock house" If you just scroll up 3 or 4 posts you'll see we've been to the clock house not so long ago, so plenty of venues to do before we return. It's so far looking like the FHT.

This might cheer you up a bit Brendan...not to mention shake East Dulwich's chatering classes to the core. http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=477&Itemid=59

Should this be the unofficial forum anthem? The Fiery Furnaces - Restorative Beer ps, not a youtube clip, if you're blocked, it's pitchfork media, may have to search it a bit more often as it goes.

Not to mention organising the security.