Sephiroth

Amazing. 27 countries including the French , the Germans, the Irish. None of them can see this amazing sci fi future that you can keano. Why wouldn?t they want in as well? Because you?ve just invented some fictional nonsense to justify U.K. trying to scam a new treaty

This is so tiresome I place no faith in this government. They are rubbish and you should treat everything the say and do with scorn They commissioned reports into the damage Brexit will do (not just no deal). Those reports Were Not Good. Very Bad. But those reports did not come from "remainers" like me Yet this government has read those reports and are telling us to our faces that Britain will "prosper mightily" you can look at Raab in TV studios spouting his nonsense and believe him if you want to All I'm saying is that, away from nutters like Raab, Johnson et al (some of whom know full well the damage about to happen) independent government reports, and business and all sensible economists (not Minford) and all other sensible EU countries (speak to citizens in Ireland and Germany for example) - the overwhelming consensus is this if a Monumental FUCK UP. Now you disagree - but your view is worthless in the scheme of things. No-one of any standing agrees with you. Your contrition should things not pan out (and "not panning out" does NOT = "living in mud huts") is of no value to anyone I mention Argentina as an example of a once fantastically wealthy and independent country which was arrogant enough to throw it all away - does that mean that WILL happen with Brexit? Not necessarily - but it is Argentina-level-folly-adjacent Are there bad faith actors who will profit financially from a Brexit? Yes. Is it that meaningful in big scene of things - probably not - but they will have lied to the UK population when it mattered (ie not now) International Pariah? Strong words - but again, no-one is looking at UK behaviour and thinking "there is a country I can trust". Rollover deals to date are just that. What happened with Japan rollover deal (to take an example) when their deal with EU shifts? All you have are empty words "ooh I don't want no deal - I'm not saying that's good"!. Is it possible the the worst outcomes will be avoided? Most likely - but they remain a risk And if they are avoided what will have been the factors in said avoidance. - it will be the very things leavers claim as their right. Sovereignty. Some sovereignty will have been ceded to avoid the worst outcomes But this whole time, the government have continued to smile and say we will "prosper mightily" - which is obviously a lie of the most morally reprehensible magnitude

Once again It isn?t claims from people like you versus remainers like us It?s the governments own analysis. It?s business of all shades and shapes. They are all saying what is going to happen. So don?t project your insecurities onto people like me

? If we're living in mud huts in 12 months, I'll concede it probably wasnt a price worth paying.? That?ll be some comfort

That?s a lot of words for ?This doesn?t sound good. We won?t be living in mud huts. But it sounds bad? So go back to 2016. Put that on a referendum and win that THEN you have a mandate But this? This is some bullshit Forget the goddamn U.K. Ireland alone is reason enough to not proceed. No mud huts involved there either but actual peace after decades. This whole thing is such bogus, Willy waving nonsense

Yes

Why not? She was as bad as everyone else. She knew the damage Brexit would do, was a remainer and then went along with lies to save her own skin This rewriting of history is just so much nonsense. There never was a soft Brexit possible. Pick a soft Brexit. Any version. And then see how much leaver throw a fit and ditch their prime minister Anyone pretending there was some good version of brexit is guilty of being away with the birds. The only options ever available were remain. Or a Brexit to satisfy the headbangers who shouted loudest for 40 years. Everything else is some genteel delusion

"the UK government (under all 3 PMs we've had since the referendum) has made significantly tougher going of the process of leaving that it probably needed to be." I think it's worth digging into why this might be. Bad fortune alone seems unlikely? TO have one prime minister unable to handle brexit well is unfortunate, to have two etc etc The simple, and obvious reason (which you will reject) is because it's a bad idea, means different things to different leave voters and is undeliverable without smashing the economy, breaking up the UK and still disappointing large % of leave voters By all means, paint a picture (real or fictional) of a prime minister who would be capable of delivering a good brexit, what it would look like and who wouldn't alienate the differing leave factions The reason we have had 3 prime ministers unable to deliver it is because as soon as IT starts to take a form, any form, beyond the fantastical promises, it pisses enough people off to ditch a prime minister. And we will shortly have another to add to that list (as well as the broken economy, angry population, Scottish referendum etc) Risk is all very well as a concept - but as you know it's about weighing the possible benefits against possible losses and includes probabilities. The possible wins of brexit were always nebulous and meaningless in harsh daylight, the losses were always way too harsh and risky (the country doesn't shoot for a prize and if it misses go back to where it was) and the probability massively weighted towards the latter The wins potentially include UK surging ahead of Germany, France etc and becoming some amazing success story. That was never likely What is going to happened is UK will AT BEST end up being the basket case it was in the 70s. Just as likely is even further to fall - Argentina being a salutary story But sure - people like me, Red Devil/rouge/blah are wrong but people like Farage, Redwood, Martin, O'Neil, Grimes etc are the smart people in the room If the only WIN is Sovereignty then we have very definition Fool's Gold. It's meaningless concept in the modern world of trade. It seems unlikely that Germany, France, Ireland and all the rest don't get "sovereignty" and there is a reason they aren't all clamouring for it in the way that extremists in UK are

? If the economic fallout is quite as apocalyptic as many remainers seem to think it will be then every section of the economy and all jobs are at risk. ? Don?t take remainers word for it. Government?s own analysis will do just fine Eu countries have sovereignty U.K. will have to give parts of it?s sovereignty with every new trade deal they do As a principle it is the most deluded and self-defeating in history

Bit defensive innit?

I?ve said before that the poll tax had a mandate until it suddenly didn?t. This is that times 100. I do t think the backlash will comprise everyone saying ?I was wrong?. But it will be chaotic and brutal. Which is more than the country needs Ah but where are the leaders to lead? Nowhere. Absolutely nowhere

That isn?t what I said. I described why people voted the way they did in 2016 - which is the exact opposite of you saying ?most ardent brexiter said there would be problems? But you view them as idiots which is... instructive

Yeah you might well have But forgive me if I prick your delusions. The population of United Kingdom didn?t base their decision on what you might have thought or said. For most, they placed their trust in people, political leaders, who lied to them Should they have thought about it as much as you? Yes the probably should have. Would the referendum have passed. Not a chance Just because you are a deluded character doesn?t mean reality will bend to your will. You are all in on a pair of twos. It?s a pair. You might actually win. But you are fool for betting on it. And you are criminal for assuming others will pay your debt

? Even the most ardent brexiteer would always acknowledge that the disruption of the exit would be negative. It's not exactly a suprise? Well now that just isn?t true is it. That may be what brexiters have pivoted to. But certainly to win a referendum that was very much not the message was it? You know all of the examples from all of the leaders as well as I do So don?t make stuff up. I know you know I?m right. It bothers the living shite out of you. It?s an itch you can never scratch. I know you have even convinced yourself that isn?t true. But it is

A feature of all cults is to vilify people who point out the emporer is wearing no cloths From David Koresh to scientologists, they rely on intelligent people swallowing the koolaid And make no mistake here - Cat, YOU are the mark. As a smart bloke you would be in the branch davidian compound, about 3 levels down from The Glorious Leader, but several levels above the great unwashed. You might have even harboured some doubts. But better to commit and follow the obvious lie than allow thought, doubt, reason to creep in

Still wanging on about ?potential? upsides. 4 years later. Just to divert from the upcoming shitshow For god sake man, have some self respect The whole thing is led by charlatans. Even if you wanted to believe you can surely see the people leading are just the worst. The only future is an indeterminate amount of years of fumbling and denying reality before rejoining because that is clearly the most advantageous position to be in. You don?t have to die on this hill of all hills

even Dutch PM (Dutch = more UK friendly than other countries) has tweeted "Dutch PM Mark Rutte responds to Boris Johnson's declaration that he's ready to go to 'Paris, Brussels or Berlin' for a deal. "I would invite him to stay in London and work hard," Rutte told reporters. "We have our own negotiator, Michel Barnier, so the capitals don't negotiate." "

amazing how much flak Corbyn got on all media for being a scruff, but with Johnson it's not just ignored, for many it's a happy byproduct of his schtick (I say this as no fan of Corbyn and I'm glad he is gone)

a corollary Johnson doesn't sign a deal, screws the country and breaks up the Uk - he's toast or Johnson signs a pitiful deal (because of his redlines and because of the reality of balance of power) and he is toast as his party turns on him for "giving in"

None so blind...

I?m genuinely and deeply sorry to hear that Ted But a) I wasn?t to know and b) not sure it has relevance on a thread about global pandemic and upcoming vaccines But I too have had family also diagnosed with cancer and know the pain. When this pandemic is over maybe people like you and me can share a pint/juice and console each other

"Cancer kills more than covid" gee - I wonder if any country in the world has figured this out yet???

The tiniest sliver of goodwill, benefit of doubt, some scintilla that The Cat knows what they speak of Pooooof....

Sorry nx. Let?s try again https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/23/conservative-party-members-stand-boris-would-vote- Nope. That doesn?t work either. But if I manually paste link to a browser it does Anyway. Try Googling ?yougov party members Boris?

This is most recent I could find. But it?s from summer. Which is like aeons ago https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/23/conservative-party-members-stand-boris-would-vote-