Santerme

My comment on the helicopters was purely a theatrical image of the last days of chaos Vietnam was part of the domino effect followed by containment and rollback of Communism Afghanistan is geo economic and strategic in nature IMHO

Oh Dear. Up from the Boonies for business this week and about to enter the fray to get to Kings Cross. I will make a great effort to remain in a peaceful place during the experience.

It is completely facile to make a comparison between Afghanistan and Vietnam There is never a military solution to an insurgency

karter Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > and what would happen if ALL troops left > Afghanistan? The people need protecting but > stamping out the Taliban? An impossible task. If all troops left It would be Saigon all over again with helicopters collecting the last one's out from the roofs

I think there is a huge difference between commenting on a the systemic failure of an institution and essentially mocking an individuals beliefs. Doing it in a fairly contemptuous and superior manner, to me, calls into question the character of that person. As for facts, in this case all I have read are subjective observations, which you are free to call facts, I suppose.

The real reasons that we are in Afghanstan are geopolitical and geostrategic If Baghdad (Iraq) is the key to control of the Middle East, then Afghanistan is the same for Central Asia. One of the only feasible routes to the sea for the fossil fuels of the Caspian basin are through Afghanistan to ports in Pakistan. Contol of this would serve well the US national interest. And one of Karzai's previous jobs.......consultant to the Trans Afghan Pipeline project. Bringing democracy to an agrian, illiterate country with no traditions of real unified govt is probably not going to happen, but if it did, it would be a by product not the primary aim.

monica Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Declan, thank you, I dont take it personally, > however I was brought up in a Italian/Spanish > household, the saint on the mantlepiece, in the > Kitchen and in our hearts was padre pio, so I have > come to look upon him as a member of my family. I > understand why DM feels bitter, a lot of the > catholics do about the whole horrible situtaion, > however DM can have a bit more respect in her > posts, I feel she can be insensitive at times and > this time i have actually spoken up. I am not in anyway religious, but even I know that you pray to the figure of Padre Pio and not worship it as an idol. I think you are best leaving the hysteria to others who appear to be having an emotional breakdown over the subject.

In the light of some research om the good old web, I revise slightly my opinion on the value of Saville...I still think it was a waste of money, but I understand better why it was agreed to. So I learned somethting new today, cheers MP.

Should we leave, yes. Can we leave, no.

womanofdulwich Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > wow Dulwich Mum- you must have had some terrible > experience with Catholicism? You sound like one of > those ex smokers! > . I thought it was just me thinking it was OTT

Not really that useful... The content of the advice was under scrutiny from the get go... Here is the Guardian back in 2005 on the subject and the Foreign Office lawyer did have the courage of her convictions unlike the AG David Leigh and Rob Evans The Guardian, Monday 28 February 2005 09.17 GMT Article history The government has promised to make a new decision by March 11 on whether to release the advice given by the attorney general, Lord Goldsmith, on the legality of the invasion of Iraq. In the wake of last week's row about allegations that Lord Goldsmith was leaned on to withdraw his original advice, Downing St now says officials are considering whether to recommend dropping efforts to conceal it. Ministers have been forced into authorising a high-level review by numerous freedom of information requests submitted since the act came into force in January. Unless ministers accept a Whitehall recommendation to make a disclosure, the next hurdle they will face is a full investigation by the information commissioner, Richard Thomas, in March. He has already assembled a team to study the issue. He has the legal power to order the release of the advice. In the legislation, ministers controversially kept the option to override the commissioner. But if they use the ministerial veto so early in the life of the act, it will lead to a further collision with supporters of freedom of information. Among those who have weighed in during the last week to say public interest demands publication of the advice - which was kept secret from the cabinet as Britain went to war - are John Major, Michael Howard and Charles Kennedy. Yesterday the Lib Dems' deputy leader, Sir Menzies Campbell, said: "Publish and be damned, yes; but don't publish and be damned even further." Legal advice commissioned by the Guardian suggests the professed reason for keeping the Iraq advice secret - legal privilege - is unsustainable. According to the authorities quoted in Keir Starmer QC's opinion, published on the Guardian website, legal privilege has disappeared because the government "cherry-picked" what purported to be a summary of the advice, publicly quoting the parts that suited the government case. Furthermore, British governments have published the text of such official legal advice in the past. Downing St says that officials will complete by March 11 a "thorough and impartial" review, and that ministers will not interfere with it. Under the act, government departments are required to conduct an internal review following appeals against FOI refusals. Documents that have also been requested include the resignation letter by the Foreign Office lawyer Elizabeth Wilmshurst, which insiders say could be explosive. It is said to disclose details showing Lord Goldsmith's original legal view was that the invasion would be wrong under international law. After Lord Goldsmith held discussions with US lawyers on President George Bush's staff, and with No 10 insiders Lord Falconer and Lady Morgan, it is alleged he was persuaded to change his mind I am SURE the Mail would not sex up a headline to gain readership. As for the Saville Inquiry, whilst it was announced in Jan 1998, first submissions were not given until March 2000. The Good Friday Agreement had been in force since April 10th 1998. It was not an adversarial process and never looked to apportion blame, that was not in its remit. Also it has not completed its report, that is due in March 2010. One of the cavaets in the proceedings is that any evidence given to the inquiry cannot be used against those particpating in a future court action.

Y'man Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Looks like Santerme and Daize are the only two > with their heads screwed on. Thanks all. Ok, you cannot use my position in that way during a debate. My approach to racists and racism is one of zero tolerance. However, I also decry the stupidity of the PC crowd, who have reduced the argument to the absurd in many respects. This debate should take place. We risk much by disallowing viewpoints that do not conform to the expected norm. I have carried with me from my days in Sandhurst a quote one of the lecturers gave out just before graduation. "Freethinkers are those who are willing to use their minds without prejudice and without fearing to understand things that clash with their own customs, privileges, or beliefs. This state of mind is not common, but it is essential for right thinking; where it is absent, discussion is apt to become worse than useless." It is from Leo Tolstoy. Over the years, I have deconflicted situations more often than I have been in combat, strangely enough, it is something the British Army is particularly good at. To do it well you have to be able to debate dispassionately, take on board varying points of view whilst maintaining your core beliefs and principles. I have no problem with my moral compass on this issue whatsoever.

Or Obama Fingers?

GSJ57 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It wasn't my intention to resurrect this thread, I > was just appalled at the OP's stance, as Sean was. > > Santerme - it was my hair that was standing up - > not Sean's. I was aware of that, but thank you. And this is an important subject, it should not be uncomfortable to talk about, that is a mistake. I have stood toe to toe with real racists, genocidal ones at that.... To modify their behaviour needed a process of discussion.

I was pretty much expecting the reply I got. No, the trivial has been inflated to the unacceptable and the nasty has been driven underground. It has not gone away and no one has stamped out racism. We have evolved over the last twenty years into a more multicultural and homogenuous society because that is the political culture of the British. Since my schooldays in Tulse Hill, some thirty odd years ago, what I said and did then to how I act now, is a measure of maturity and respect for others rather than societal imposed rules. As a country we are more mature to the needs of others now too. But, I still miss the gollywog off the jam jar.

He said that the attitude then, when he was found with it, back in the 80's to be retarded and it has got worse since. How does that make your hair stand up twenty or thirty years further on? It is packet with a Negro wearing a top hat, back then we watched the Minstrels shows as families on a Saturday night. I think some perspective is called for. The greatest problem with discussing racism, is that you cannot seem to disassociate the naff from the really nasty.

I think I might have been slightly upset had he been found with the full regalia of a member of the KKK amonhgst his belongings. But a tube of toothpaste, back in the 1980's, please.

19) Astral Projection

Disgusting The shock of such an event must kind of root you to the spot for those vital seconds that allow the little asshat to escape. On the plus side, you never got arrested for assault, which would probably have been the farcical end result had you managed to catch up with him. Whilst I am sure we in the west country are not underserved by our share of scum bandits, I am still glad I live here now rather than there. Sorry this happened to you.

The Bloody Sunday Inquiry never bought peace in Northern Ireland, if anything it allowed old resentments to resurface. Operationally, a repeat of Bloody Sunday is as close to an impossibility as one can get. So the purpose of that Inquiry was what to apportion blame? Much as it pains me, the blame has always been clear, the Army opened fire on unarmed civilians and committed a massacre no less criminal than the acts of terror perpetrated by the IRA. How many soldiers were ever convicted? The invasion of Iraq was carried out in the fullest glare of publicity, even before the operation was launched questions were being asked as to it's legitimacy. Subsequently, millions upon millions of words have been written on the subject. We know the processes the principle nations went through to make the decision to invade. The arguments for and against were constantly on the radio, in print and on our televisions day in, day out. As we are not to be allowed to hear the confidential aspects of the inquiry, everything is already in the public domain. Sir Humphrey would be immensely proud of this farago of a procedure. I may be cynical, but I have served in staff jobs in the MOD and my company consults on security matters to the same august institution. The public will get to hear what the PUS and his immediate cohorts want released. Hence my assertion that once again we have the charade of an inquiry, which will add not a jot to the sum of our knowledge about the Iraq war. I and the men I commanded kicked off on the way to Umm Qasr in the full belief we were going to pave the way for a new era for the Iraqi people.... The Inquiry I would like to hear from is the one into Cheney and Rumsfield's decision to ignore the US State Dept's considered plan for the immediate start to reconstruction and rehabilitation projects. How they supplanted military authority with Bremmer, who turned out to be the greatest liability inflicted on Iraq. Why deBathification took precedent over establishing a security apparatus, which was the cause of the rapid decline in law and order. I would like to know why the invasion was not postponed when Turkey refused 4 ID transit through it's territory and this unit was not redeployed South to give more adequate boots on the ground. But in the end all this is fairly moot because, those that have died are dead, those injured are dealing with their lives. The geopolitical situation in the ME is about as cocked up as it can be and regional power is now in the hands of those we sought to marginalise. It's like the scene in A Bridge Too Far when Connery is offered a cup of tea by his Batman. I paraphrase, 'I have half my division scattered over Holland, lunatics laughing at me from the woods, and you make me a cup of tea'. Well, I guess the Inquiry cannot hurt either!

The safety and security of your men and women is the paramount concern of any commander. However, the need to keep onside the local static population is essential so you do all possible to lower the impact of operations on them Human Terrain Mapping is how it is achieved and HTT's are deployed with frontline troops. Tactical patience is also being used...this reduces the impact of local actions at the strategic level.

Complete and utter waste of time and money. ?182 million on the Saville Inquiry into Bloody Sunday, any bets on what this will cost? Perhaps, the price of a Chinook we could use in AFG and actually save a few lives. The files are sealed for 30 years, anything classified is going to be heard in camera. It is a milksop, and a bloody expensive one.

It's The Catcher!

I only fear the Eddorians Yours sincerely Kimball Kinnison

I feel sorry for the pensioner 10 minutes down the road who had the policeman not had to stop for an unnecessary nuisance would have saved her from being mugged. That's my Sliding Doors theory anyway.