MMR and Autism- whats your opinion...

[Yuuna]

I posted earlier accidentally and this forum doesn't allow for a delete button... It is unfair to make parents feel bad by claiming not vaccinating their children means they put other children at risk. How so? If the other children are all vaccinated for all known diseases, what's the problem? They'll be protected, won't they? That is all just propaganda with little to no evidence to back it up. It is also undermined by disease outbreaks in vaccinated populations whose victims were all vaccinated. Well that makes no sense to me. Shame on people for scaremongering and branding others selfish. I and others who have not allowed their children to be vaccinated, am/are not responsible for the measles outbreaks in developed countries; they're only occurring in highly vaccinated areas. I'm not a bad parent for realising this.

[ianr]

The article Yuuna has dumped on us is copyright ? 2014 | Modern Alternative Mama. It can be read at http://www.modernalternativemama.com/blog/2014/01/10/growing-up-unvaccinated-scary-potential-or-healthy-reality/ if anyone wants to.

Ed: I think this thread is ripe for closing down. There has been some useful stuff on 'both' sides succinctly stated on previous pages.

[Yuuna]

Ianr I posted the link already, twice. I did not realise it was copyright, however I did post a link (twice)...

I removed the text I copied, from my second posting of it (admin please delete the first one or allow us to delete our posts, please?). I did not just dump it, Ianr, like I wrote, I did provide the link (read my post next time...?).

Is it not better to remove the thread then? If you only think 'succintly' stated points have been useful...

[root]

Yuuna Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I posted earlier accidentally and this forum

> doesn't allow for a delete button... It is unfair

> to make parents feel bad by claiming not

> vaccinating their children means they put other

> children at risk. How so? If the other children

Harsh? Maybe. Unfair? No.

> are all vaccinated for all known diseases, what's

> the problem? They'll be protected, won't they?

Please go and educate yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_immunity

> That is all just propaganda with little to no

> evidence to back it up. It is also undermined by

> disease outbreaks in vaccinated populations whose

> victims were all vaccinated. Well that makes no

> sense to me. Shame on people for scaremongering

> and branding others selfish. I and others who have

> not allowed their children to be vaccinated,

> am/are not responsible for the measles outbreaks

> in developed countries; they're only occurring in

> highly vaccinated areas. I'm not a bad parent for

> realising this.

As someone already posted:

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/09/13/2617061/measles-outbreak-vaccine-beliefs/

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-antivaccination-movement-20140120,0,5576371.story#axzz2r8HfEMuf

Both above pages cite various sources if you drill down.

Anyway I'm out of here.

[ianr]

Yuuna, as I've said to Admin, I'd have objected even if it had not been copyright. Discussion is not a matter of inconsiderately throwing huge chunks of verbiage at your interlocutors.

[Yuuna]

Ianr you miss my point... I posted, as I have observed others have done, so people could read the whole text not have others simply pick quotes out to use for their opinion. I understand how a discussion works. Perhaps, suggest that to others being rude? Please do not assume I was being inconsiderate, that is untrue. Also, am I missing something? You said to Admin, only about what I wrote...?

Roots, if you can't tell I was being sarcastic, then...perhaps consult Wikipedia for useful examples? Let me help you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

[TE44]

Ive often saw whole links put up, its a first to hear of someone taking it to admin,

ianr your objection makes no sense to me, if its copyright and legaly not allowed fair enough,

"verbiage at your interlocutars" seriously, there has been abusive language used on this thread but you would

object to admin because you believe yuuna was inconsiderate.

As I've said before on vaccine choice, it worries me when I hear peoples extreme views on exluding unvaccinated,children, not on this particular thread but previous ones.

I can understand the reason for concern as often our concerns are the same.

With the live fluenz nasal spray being administered this winter, and the shedding of this virus

I put a link before showing 69% of children shed this vaccine in the first week. When I click on to

the link in a previous post it is no longer there but here is the latest data although harder to understan %.

http://clinicaltrials.gov/show/NCT00231907?displayxml=true

All the concerns given about unvaccinated children spreading disease especially

to immunocompromised is stated as fact when this vaccine is administered.

And as a mother in reply to my asking said yes they were told before child had it.

Many people immediately said there was a very slim chance but the clinical trial did not show that.

Regardless of my concerns I cannot imagine wanting to take the choice away from parents, blaming them personally if my

child became ill and certainly not saying they shouldnt have children.

[owlwise]

Read this about it:

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/one-map-sums-damage-caused-anti-vaccination-movement

[root]

This came up on my feeds a few hours ago and really cracked me up, in particular the graph for autism vs organic food:

http://www.skepticblog.org/2014/01/22/autism-and-vaccines-correlation-is-not-causation/

[david_carnell]

Excellent article, root. A simple and comprehensive rebuttal to nearly all the arguments made by the anti-vaccine lobby.

The correlation with Jenny McCarthy's career was particularly comic.

[minder]

Hope the OP is a bit clearer on what to do regarding the MMR!

I remember back in 1998 when my youngest (now 15) was due her MMR and the Andrew Wakefield scare was everywhere on the news etc. I think if I had not had two older children who had already had the jab then I probably would have had some doubts about whether to give, but she received it. Since then I've had the worry about whether to let my girls have the cervical cancer jab when they reached their teens, but they've had it.

I just wish there was a jab now for breast and ovarian cancer ....

My Mum's sister died at age 14 from Rheumatic Fever (in 1945) but rheumatic fever is now unheard of (in this country I think).

[bornagain]

I hear the nay sayers to vaccination but I can't believe their selfishness. Not just because they are not doing their part in trying to maintain the herd immunity that Britain currently enjoys. No, by not vaccinating, they are exposing their children (those that they claim to protect) to a life-time of risk.

Living in Britain your unvaccinated children may be relatively safe but what if they go abroad?

Also a lot of these childhood illnesses become MUCH more serious when you are adult. I know from painful experience as I got chicken pox in my thirties. I have NEVER been so ill in my life, and I have had my bouts of severe ill health including several abdominal operations and a 3 month stint of chemo. Chicken pox contracted as an adult tops them all.

We live in an international world where we take foreign holidays and young people go on gap year stints all over the world including areas where the health care is not that great. For their sake please get them vaccinated.

[newtoedf]

I used to think that parents who didn't vaccinate their children were only putting their own children at risk. Then I got a letter home from my daughter's nursery about a case there. My child was not quite 1 so almost due her MMR but not quite. The realisation that my child was a risk of contracting a potentially life-threatening disease because of someone else neglecting to vaccinate their child quickly changed my mind! It is with noting that some countries won't allow unvaccinated children to attend school.

[sillywoman]

This puts an interesting perspective on the Wakefield fiasco in a concise and easy-to-read format:

http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

[buggie]

sillywoman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This puts an interesting perspective on the

> Wakefield fiasco in a concise and easy-to-read

> format:

>

> http://tallguywrites.livejournal.com/148012.html

Saw this the other week & was amazed that there were even more dodgy things going on than I'd realised :-s

[Grotty]

http://thebea.st/1d94BTK

Well said

[bornagain]

Grotty Wrote:

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> http://thebea.st/1d94BTK

> Well said

Yes indeed.

[LondonMix]

The US is one of the countries that won't allow children to register for school without proof of vaccination.

For those questioning why outbreaks happen in Britain (which is highly vaccinated) and how their decision not to vaccinate their children puts other children at risk the explanation is rather straight forward.

Vaccinations work both at the level of the individual and via herd immunity. Even though Britain still has a resaonably high vaccination rate, in certain areas, it is falling below the level at which herd immunity is effective.

Diseases like measles are so contagious that without vaccination virtually every child would catch it at some point in their lives. When immunisation rates are high, the disease cannot easily spread to those that are too young or too sick (under going cancer treatment / suffering from an autoimmune disease etc) to be vaccinated-this is herd immunity. Allowing vaccination levels to fall below the herd immunity level puts these people at greater risk of infection.

Therefore, the decision not to vaccinate your child increases the risk that your child will contract the disease and also increases the risk that other children too young or too sick for vaccinations will contract the disease and suffer severe complications.

newtoedf Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I used to think that parents who didn't vaccinate

> their children were only putting their own

> children at risk. Then I got a letter home from my

> daughter's nursery about a case there. My child

> was not quite 1 so almost due her MMR but not

> quite. The realisation that my child was a risk of

> contracting a potentially life-threatening disease

> because of someone else neglecting to vaccinate

> their child quickly changed my mind! It is with

> noting that some countries won't allow

> unvaccinated children to attend school.

[buggie]

Very well explained London Mix. :0)

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The US is one of the countries that won't allow

> children to register for school without proof of

> vaccination.

>

> For those questioning why outbreaks happen in

> Britain (which is highly vaccinated) and how their

> decision not to vaccinate their children puts

> other children at risk the explanation is rather

> straight forward.

>

> Vaccinations work both at the level of the

> individual and via herd immunity. Even though

> Britain still has a resaonably high vaccination

> rate, in certain areas, it is falling below the

> level at which herd immunity is effective.

>

> Diseases like measles are so contagious that

> without vaccination virtually every child would

> catch it at some point in their lives. When

> immunisation rates are high, the disease cannot

> easily spread to those that are too young or too

> sick (under going cancer treatment / suffering

> from an autoimmune disease etc) to be

> vaccinated-this is herd immunity. Allowing

> vaccination levels to fall below the herd immunity

> level puts these people at greater risk of

> infection.

>

> Therefore, the decision not to vaccinate your

> child increases the risk that your child will

> contract the disease and also increases the risk

> that other children too young or too sick for

> vaccinations will contract the disease and suffer

> severe complications.

>

> newtoedf Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I used to think that parents who didn't

> vaccinate

> > their children were only putting their own

> > children at risk. Then I got a letter home from

> my

> > daughter's nursery about a case there. My child

> > was not quite 1 so almost due her MMR but not

> > quite. The realisation that my child was a risk

> of

> > contracting a potentially life-threatening

> disease

> > because of someone else neglecting to vaccinate

> > their child quickly changed my mind! It is

> with

> > noting that some countries won't allow

> > unvaccinated children to attend school.

[TE44]

The Deadly Impossibility Of Herd Immunity Through Vaccinations..

http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/02/18/the-deadly-impossibility-of-herd-immunity-through-vaccination-by-dr-russell-blaylock/

[root]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The Deadly Impossibility Of Herd Immunity Through

> Vaccinations..

>

> http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/02/18/the-

> deadly-impossibility-of-herd-immunity-through-vacc

> ination-by-dr-russell-blaylock/

A nice breakdown of that article ...

https://jdc325.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/vaccination-council-misleading/#more-4370

Was only a question of time before Blaylock came up:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Russell_Blaylock

I suppose the next in line would be Burzynski.

[david_carnell]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The Deadly Impossibility Of Herd Immunity Through

> Vaccinations..

>

> [www.vaccinationcouncil.org]-

> deadly-impossibility-of-herd-immunity-through-vacc

> ination-by-dr-russell-blaylock

Ah yes very good. Have you bothered to investigate the people behind that site? You know, to check they aren't quacks?

Dr Suzanne Humphries for instance - listed as one of their board of directors and the author of the wibble you linked to.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/02/16/dr-suzanne-humphries-and-the-internation/

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/07/19/i-know-you-are-but-what-am-i-medical-voi/

She's a homeopath - I wouldn't trust her opinion on the weather if she had her head stuck out the window.

[TE44]

The docter that wrot the article is a retired neurosurgeon.

[root]

TE44 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The docter that wrot the article is a retired

> neurosurgeon.

Russel Blaylock may have started in science based medicine but at some point went full retard and it's interesting how you would love to take as gospel the words of a retired neurosurgeon best known for his MSG and Aspartame hysteria but not the scientific body that has gone over the data a million times over given all the hysteria.

http://www.skepdic.com/blaylock.html

[TE44]

So tell me then how it feels to think your children are protecting, then find out there have been no sufficient test done, and trials withheld about safety from pharmaceutical companies. I am not a christian but would be interested to hear how your gospels stand on sharing there teachings.

Heres a lin

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/behindtheheadlines/news/2014-01-07-mps-criticise-tamiflu-secrecy-and-stockpiling/

I believe there is a sufficient amount of people including the Cochrane Collaboration (have encountered resistance whilst trying to review medicines for this goverment) who do not take there words for gospel.

here is a link to petition for all trials to be given.

http://www.alltrials.net/