Is Alleyn's School a cuckoo?

[Dull Itch]

Smiler Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Walk past the school lots and it has lovely

> grounds, but very rarely are there any kids

> (either from the school or visiting) actually

> visible - is a bit eerie.

Smiler,

I imagine you, like most of us, have a day job, in which case you are unlikely to be passing Alleyn's during school hours.... Perhaps you could write to them to ask them to make more frequent use of the fields; perhaps the odd firework display....

[thebeard]

As a Southwark council taxpayer I LOVE Alleyns and all the other private schools!

All fee-paying parents give indirectly to the community and council taxpayers.

Every child who is at Alleyns etc is one less child at a STATE School.

So saving all of us the cost of that child?s school place!

Fantastic!

The parents PAY TAXES ?like the rest of us tax payers? to send local children to state schools ????. Then pay AGAIN to send their own kids to private school!

If it were a fair system then they would get a TAX rebate for sending their children to private school.

[Asset]

Yes thebeard fair enough but your comment doesn't address the latest issue which is what we want to discuss. Not rehashing the argument of state versus private which can run and run.

Interestingly there are traffic monitoring sensor wires that have just been put into Hillsboro Rd (along with a lot of East Dulwich). These wires went in the day before Alleyn's closed for the holidays and therefore will not show a true representation of the traffic, in fact there is hardly any traffic when the school is closed.

[Asset]

"If it were a fair system then they would get a TAX rebate for sending their children to private school"

I think that comment is taking the argument into the realms of the ridiculous frankly!

[thebeard]

Road traffic around schools is down to poor Southwark Planning.

Southwark should require schools to have sufficient off road facilities for parents to drop children on the school premises.

Alleyns grounds could easily be set out to have a drive through for set down, but they will do everything they can to avoid that and load up the local roads rather than rearrange their grounds.

If you live next to a school you have to accept the problems of parking traffic etc.

So the soultion lies with Southwark forcing Alleyns to do the right thing, residents should lobby for that.

[edhistory]

I am looking for evidence of Alleyn's School's contribution to the local community during the 20th century with particular emphasis on the period before the second world war.

Can anyone help?

Thank you.

John K

[Townleygreen]

Why are you interested?

[lillyanginger]

Why not ask the school directly?

[Townleygreen]

Good idea - they have an archivist

[edhistory]

Townleygreen:

There is no published historical narrative of charities and their work in East Dulwich.

The starting point is Terry's Charity which was in existence before 1818. William Terry of Lordship Lane gave to his educational charity an annuity of ?60 in perpetuity and the freehold of four small cottages in Lordship Lane known as Terry Place.

After that there is a gaping void to be filled.

On this thread several people have posted that they know about Alleyn's School's charitable work in the community. I am hoping they may provide some evidence.

The emphasis here (the EDF) on before the second world war is because the oral history interviews may pick up some post-1939 information.

lillyanginger:

The donor records in the school's archive have a part to play in the narrative. However, I'm looking for a balanced view that includes recipient documents and memories.

The school is the wealthiest charity in East Dulwich and over a hundred years it should have left a tangible footprint of its charitable work in the community.

John K

[Earl Aelfheah]

I have no strong views on Alleyn's specifically but the whole 'charitable status for private schools' thing is ludicrous. I really can't see how it's justified.

[Townleygreen]

John, I am not sure what you mean by a wealthy charity exactly, but in the case of Alleyn's until the funds of the Estates Governors were more fairly distributed in the 90s it got a tiny amount of money from the Dulwich Foundation compared to Dulwich College and JAGs. In the inter-war period it would not have been well off at all.

Of course, another view is that work in the community by a school has nothing to do with how "wealthy" a school is, but how focussed the school and the pupils are on doing their bit for the community. I believe that in the 30s Alleyn's got a high proportion of its pupils from ED, which was quite a working class/lower middle class area then.

[edhistory]

Townleygreen:

I used the relative "wealthiest" as a comparison with the very small number of East Dulwich charities I know about. This is personal knowledge based on the examination of files going back to 1948.

I do not have any evidence yet, but I would be surprised if it was not also the wealthiest for the period 1918-1939.

Information about scholarships and bursaries for East Dulwich boys would be very useful. I know from casual conversations at the time that from the mid-1950s to the mid-1960s the terminology used was imprecise. A scholarship boy waa a scholarship boy, and that was that. No distinction was drawn between a full or partial bursary provided and funded by the school and a school place purchased by the London County Council.

I am using a nominal cut-off date of 31 March 1965 for local history. I do not intend to enter any debates about the 21st century charitable status of the school.

John K

[Townleygreen]

John, I have clearly said that JAGS was far richer than Alleyns until the 1990s!

[Amelie]

John K

Allen's only exists because of the forcible rescheming of Dulwich College by the newly formed Charity Commission in the late 19th century. It was set up as a grant maintained school and would have had very little money of its own. I think you are confusing Alleyn's with the Edward Alleyn Foundation of God's Gift at Dulwich which really is the largest local charity and the owner of a great part of the land in and around Dulwich.

The person you need to speak to is Bryan Green, he is the leading local historian in Dulwich and wrote a paper on the history of the Edward Alleyn estate. His family still own the stationers in Dulwich Village and he should be contactable via the business.

[mynamehere]

If you want to close down the private schools bring back state grammars. This time link each to a comprehensive: JAGS to Charter, Kingsdale to D.C., for example, and make sure the movement up as well as down stays open and transparent.

At the same time equate plumbing with neurosurgery demanding the highest training good benefits and social recognition

Not everyone needs or wants to go to "university" want they want and society needs is they do their job at the highest modern level

Does Britain have the worst trained builders in the developed world?

JAGS at least, Alleyn's as well? started life as a grammar. No one really wants to pay for education after they've paid their taxes. What they want is quiet in the classroom and a guarantee that their child gets exposed to material at the top end of their ability to learn. Private schools also "set" btw and kids resit exams they flubbed

[edhistory]

Townleygreen:

I don't mind if you want to treat JAGS as being in East Dulwich and demote Alleyn's to second wealthiest.

Although JAGS is in the SE22 post code area it is a bit of a stretch to say it's in East Dulwich.

It would be great if you have some fresh evidence that JAGS' plot of land was ever in East Dulwich

I imagine you can verify the relative wealth of of JAGS and Alleyn's from the Foundation's returns to the Charities Commission.

Amelie:

I have an original copy of the 1857 "An Act for Confirming a Scheme of the Charity Commissioners...[etc, etc]". The Victorians were verbose - they could have called it "The Dulwich College Act". The corruption and events leading up to the 1857 Act are interesting, but not part of East Dulwich history.

However, Camberwell Vestry seem to have done some "interesting things" in the first half of the 19th century, but that's another thread for another time.

Everyone:

I'm afraid my original question has become somewhat obscured:

I am looking for evidence of Alleyn's School's contribution to the local community during the 20th century with particular emphasis on the period before the second world war.

John K

[rgutsell]

Hiya all

As a reactionary left wing Spart, I just want to say that Alleyns, Jaggers etc etc were all originaly set up to provide education for those that could not afford eduaction, and were granted charitable status later on to assist them. This status gives them considerable tax clout, they own large amounts of land in our very over priced locality, bus in kids from large areas of london which have perfectly reasonable schools, recieve (and have recieved) substantial monies from wills etc. Why should these rich, and over resourced, private institutions be subsidised by any funds, in any form, the tax payer?

There, I just had to get that of my chest!

Rgutsell; a perfectly happy and well educated product of a comprehensive school!

[Reg Smeeton]

> Rgutsell; a perfectly happy and well educated

> product of a comprehensive school!

Recieved (sic) loud and clear.

[fazer71]

rgutsell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hiya all

>

> As a reactionary left wing Spart, I just want to

> say that Alleyns, Jaggers etc etc were all

> originaly set up to provide education for those

> that could not afford eduaction, and were granted

> charitable status later on to assist them. This

> status gives them considerable tax clout, they own

> large amounts of land in our very over priced

> locality, bus in kids from large areas of london

> which have perfectly reasonable schools, recieve

> (and have recieved) substantial monies from wills

> etc. Why should these rich, and over resourced,

> private institutions be subsidised by any funds,

> in any form, the tax payer?

>

> There, I just had to get that of my chest!

>

> Rgutsell; a perfectly happy and well educated

> product of a comprehensive school!

I'm not in favour of either system.

TAX?..

Anyone who sends their kids to private school is doing the tax payer a big favour as they still pay tax ?usually a lot? ?which helps pays for state schools etc? and they pay the school fees too so paying twice.

Looking at it that way we?d all be better off if more people sent their kids to private schools.

The offset in tax terms is probably still very biased against the wealthy and private schools.

As for end results well in my experience of working in numerous areas of finance and construction I don?t know anyone who?s a product of private school who?s a well rounded successful individual but have met plenty of state schooled individuals who are successful and also happy.

[paphio]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Q) Does it produce excellent pupils who set a fine

> example of what modern school leavers can be like

> and schoolchildren aspire to?

>

> A) Peaches Geldof

B) john Galliano

[EDOldie]

Er, I think he went to Tulse Hill (RIP)

[Townleygreen]

Peaches Geldof didn't attend Alleyns either.

[EDOldie]

Oh I think she did, in fact I think ll the Geldof girls did

[Townleygreen]

No you are wrong, only Pixie was at Alleyn's. Peaches applied, but didn't pass the entrance exam.