ED is becoming less diverse as a result of recent Demog. changes (Lounged)

[Brendan]

I really don?t think English means being ?white?. Culturally a white, English person has more in common with a black person from the West Indies than they do with a Russian. You can?t always lump people into categories because of the colour of their skin.

[snorky]

BARA Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The 'diversity' of East Dulwich is generated in

> part by those who have purchased housing here -

> which tends to be more expensive than Forest Hill

> and Sydenham. For the most part newcomers come

> with the salaries to attract the larger mortgages

> and who expect a standard of shop which 10 years

> ago would only have been found in Dulwich

> Village/Blackheath/some parts of Clapham. Us

> 'oldies' who have either grown up in the area, or

> purchased property when East Dulwich was 'down

> market' are a mixed bag- we are to some extent

> income poor but asset rich. My family could not

> afford to shop in some of the recent 'high

> street'/ North Cross Road type establishments. On

> the other hand, ED has gone from being 'bed sit

> land' to rented flats and houses which are

> attracting a variety of classes/cultures/ethnic

> backgrounds/income levels which add to the

> regeneration of East Dulwich. As a residents'

> association, BARA receives a grant from Southwark

> Council to provide a meeting place for Southwark

> Council Tenants and Leaseholders, and to hold

> events relating to improving

> housing/living/environment/quality of life of

> these residents. As BARA is opened to all

> residents- regardless of tenure, we have a mixture

> of ages/ethnic backgrounds/income/owner

> occupiers/social housing/ private tenants.

> Their interest in joining us varies from wanting

> to integrate into a new area, to improve community

> relations and social cohesion and to improve the

> local environment.

>

> The diversity of ED comes from the acceptance (to

> the most part) of all social, cultural and ethnic

> backgrounds. An American colleague complimented us

> on how well 'strangers' are accepted within the

> local community and that we were more

> hospitable/friendlier than most of her fellow

> Americans. The East Dulwich Community Centre

> (where BARA is based) has seen over the past 2

> years more organisations being developed

> reflecting the diversity of the area - The Afro

> Caribbean Elders Group, The Southwark Muslim

> organisations, A Bangladeshi Group, and the Milan

> Association which embraces all cultures.

>

> None of my children live in ED - they cannot

> afford either the rental rates of a property - or

> to purchase a family home, they now live in

> Orpington, Sussex and Essex where a 3 bed terrace

> house can still be purchased under ?195,000. I

> would think those who are moving out of the area

> are moving for economic reasons and not really by

> choice.

yer bugger

do you actually talk like this BARA ?

this reads like a corporate PR release by an oil company or something

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

So, does being English (by which I think you mean white) necessarily mean being shaming? What do you mean by it? I mentioned my neighbours' ethnicity just to show how diverse the area was, but attached no values to them. You, au contraire, did the opposite. If you are 'English' yourself, ask yourself why you felt the need to say it. It says a lot about you. And why is 'Celtic' - itself a debatable adjective - deemed to be somehow better than non-Celtic, for that is what comes across in the way you phrase your sentences. And for the record, I simply don't thank/curse the Lord/whatever for being lucky/unlucky enough to live with the neighbours I have. It doesn't bother me. If they start revving their car engines or rowing in teh street, then it does, in whatever language they choose to do it. Nero

Err, I was messing about:-S

[Nero]

Ok, Nero

[downsouth]

Gosh, I suppose it was inevitable that some swords would cross but in themain this has been a very mature and senslbily discussed thread. A great example of exploring these issues in a non-confrontational manner. It is all too easy for some characters to be as negative as possible and say things they wouldn't dare say in the 'real' world. Brendan makes a brilliant point regarding cultural similarities. I always find they are emphasised when you go on holiday.

Following on from my previous post and what has been put here since ED 'appears' to have less african caribbean (and Turkish when I think of it) infleunces and residents. But that in itself has not led to a lessening of its cutural mix as there is still a significant presence and in addition many new nationalities particularly antipodeans and Eastern Europeans have come to settle here.

Much of this is to do with economics - that favourite topic of mine - and little or nothing to do with anything else.

[ibo]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ibo Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I know of several black families that have taken

> the money and moved to places such as the West

> Indies and Croydon

>

> Sorry, that sentence just made me laugh a lot!

> >:D Wonder which one I'd chose if I had the dosh...

It was meant to be humorous. Croydon , here I come .

[ibo]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> >

> But that doesn't make it economic ethnic cleansing

> does it? Taking the money and choosing to return

> home is a choice. When Eastenders move from Mile

> End to Essex it's not economic ethnic cleansing is

> it? It's two sides of the same coin - ie shifting

> demographics (happening since for EVER by the way)

> can, to some people, make other areas/choices more

> desirable.

>

> downsouth - excellent post and I can imagine my

> mother being very much of the same mindset as your

> friends/family. As my (by proxy) father in law put

> it on a visit to ED a couple of years ago "so this

> is where the chattering classes live"

Of course it is ethnic cleansing through the tools of economic behavior.It is free an voluntary.

[mockney piers]

"Of course it is ethnic cleansing through the tools of economic behavior.It is free an voluntary."

Do i have to repeat myself.

Note the words policy, ethnic purity, and more particularly genocide.

If it's a voluntary cash in on prevailing market conditions then how can that be someone else's policy aimed at ethnic purity, and it sure as hell ain't genocide?

In the catalogue of horrors there in the 21st century, from Botswana to Zimbabwe via Iraq and Sudan, I'm failing to spot the great East Dulwich House Price Hoik.

Ethnic cleansing is already a term coined as a euphemism to avoid the use of the term genocide, such that the world powers don't have to get involved in order to stop it, as they all signed up to in post war period.

Now it's becoming a term for a few people doing very nicely out of selling their homes and moving out to the suburbs.

Sheesh, no wonder Darfur still burns.

Sorry if this is over the top offtopication, but language and semantics ultimately frame debate from a forum here to the highest levels at the UN. You're insistence that it is "ethnic cleansing" frankly really gets my goat.

.....and breathe......

[Nero]

Thank you Chomsky Piers. GPWM. Language is all. Nero

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Convention against Genocide:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

© Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

So the policy of house price rises is (b) & © causing serious mental harm to members of the group known as 'working class'. The chav baiting asbo's, dispersal orders etc are further proof of a sustained policy by central government to bring about the mental distruction of this group and deliberate infliction of conditions calculated to bring about their destruction.

(e)well here we have it. The children of the group known as the 'working class' are being forcibly transferred to another group known as 'the suburbanites'.

Guilty as charged!

The tory Blair/Brown government is in breach of international law by committing genocide by attempting to destroy, in part, or in whole the group known as the 'working class'!

[Maurice]

I've just withdrawn my support for your candidacy. That's a step too loony for my liking. You're still on my Christmas list though.

[mockney piers]

A nice tongue in cheek post there CWALD, but on a minorly serious note I still take issue with

"So the policy of house price rises"

Remind me ... whose policy?

[Mark]

That's monster raving loony talk CWALD, and please enlighten me, people with ASBOs fall under which of the following: "national, ethnical, racial or religious group"?

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

"So the policy of house price rises"

Remind me ... whose policy?

Thing is, we didn't really have to go through all that effort of engineering a "policy of house price rises" to rid East Dulwich of the cursed working classes. As it turned out, refurbing a couple of pubs and having a market on Saturdays where, amongst other things, you can buy organic foods::o, seems to have done the trick.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

The group known as the 'working class' used to be national, but as a result of the UK policies equivalent to genocide are not allowed in many areas formerly open to all and are being sent to ghettos such as Bromley.

[mockney piers]

Indeed DPF, isn't it wonderful how few hoi polloi there are these days wot ho ;-)

[lozzyloz]

"rid East Dulwich of the cursed working classes" another very extreme verging on hysterical statement.

Peckham has a Farmers Market. Are you saying that Peckham residents don't use it or that they are being forced out of the area because of it?

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

"rid East Dulwich of the cursed working classes" another very extreme verging on hysterical statement.

FFS:'(

[Maurice]

I'm keen to google and find the policy that led to the area going 'down market' decades or so ago. Genocide of the middle classes I recall.

[macroban]

Maurice,

If you read Mary Boast's book on the history of Camberwell you will get some clues about why Camberwell went 'down market'.

MacRoban

[Maurice]

I have read it, thank you. It was pure genocide.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Why, what happened?

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

I have read it, thank you. It was pure genocide.

You exaggerate sir! It was not genocide, it was though a clear case of ethnic cleansing. FACT

At least the most recent victims of ethnic cleansing made a tidy pile from the sale of their property, the greatest tragedy of the middle-class exodus was that housing prices were quite depressed at the time. Some of them made as little as 2% profit..... the horror, the horror.

[Maurice]

The policy of house price drops wass (b) & © causing serious mental harm to members of the group known as 'middle class'. The toff baiting: muggings, anti-social behaviour, demands for free housing, etc were further proof of a sustained policy by central government to bring about the mental distruction of this group and deliberate infliction of conditions calculated to bring about their destruction.

(e)well here we have it. The children of the group known as the 'middle class' were forcibly transferred to another group known as 'the suburbanites'.

Guilty as charged!

[Mark]

as Mockney pointed out, please can we leave out the "ethnic cleansing" bit from this argument, I too believe it's not something to be bandied around lightly