Weekend nightime demographics/behaviour in ED (Lounged)

[smith]

I wonder if the situation has deteriorated since the smoking ban? Smoking and drinking has now spilled out onto the streets so away from the relative safety of an enclosed space. In the old days anyone being troublesome inside a pub/bar would be swiftly ejected and excluded. Now because everyone's out on the streets it's not so easy to distinguish troublemakers.

[peckhamboy]

The difference between ED and Clapham/Islington is that:

1. ED doesn't have any nightclubs (so is less of a friday/saturday "destination" for boozed up yoofs), and

2. ED doesn't have a tube station (so is less likely to attract people from out of the area anyway),

so I don't see it ever going the same way entirely. I think the truth is that anywhere in London will seem potentially intimidating at 1am on a Friday/Saturday night, but that ED is less so than many. I was in Islington a few weeks ago and found it deeply unpleasant and pretty intimidating walking down Upper St later on at night - I've never yet felt that way in ED.

[Frisco]

"Whereas if there was a Weatherspoons on the Lane you might actually see a real increase in 'undersirables'."

No, don't even suggest it! I used to have friends who lived in Ruskin House, opposite the Fox on the Hill, and I wouldn't want that replicated in LL. I used to occasionally go in there too and it was a really coarse boozers pub.

[SeanMacGabhann]

smith (or MacGabhann as we are in Irish!)

I think the behaviour we are discussing was more than prevelant before the smoking ban. In fact, with no data to back me up at all, I would hazard that having more people on the street who are not lurching from pub to pub might have a slightly positive, self-policing aspect to it?

And as downsouth rightly says, we are talking about it as a subject, but the reality is it's not that bad and far preferable to most other places, not just in South London but almost any of the picture-postcard towns in the Home Counties

[Keef]

Cassius Wrote:

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> The problem does seem to be a predominantly

> British or at least Northern European one. I have

> spent some time in Mediterranean countries where

> drinking is mainly confined to meals. Young

> people gather in large groups in Italy, France and

> Spain as they do here, but there it is perceived

> to be terribly 'uncool' be to drunk rather than

> 'clever'.

That's a very good point. However, you shul try Australia, now they are macho! Then again, they are all British I guess ;-)

Seriously, I love Oz, but they are definitely a few years behind (think Life on Mars with mor tans), it is a real man's world over there, and I could easily have ended up in several brawls with p"ssed blokes in clubs had I not been just that bit classier! :)-D

[Frisco]

"Then again, they are all British I guess"

Or the descendants of the really bad ones!

[Frisco]

"1. ED doesn't have any nightclubs (so is less of a friday/saturday "destination" for boozed up yoofs)"

This is true, and fortunately LL doesn't have the ex-cinema/bingo halls or the other larger premises, like Co-op Hall and closed down department stores that would make these very likely in the future.

[mockney piers]

"Italy, France and Spain ... it is perceived to be terribly 'uncool' be to drunk rather than 'clever'"

I can't really speak for France, in Italy I have noticed people like to nurse a glass of wine or campari all night but the main square in Verona is probably not representative of a huge cross section of Italian society; but I can definitely speak for Spain and can say that drunkenness is as highly prized there as it is here amongst the younger generation (30ish and down) as it is here.

And Madrid has some pretty serious issues with violence too, it's had a healthy knife culture for a lot longer than this place has.

[MrBen]

I agree that ED is essentially a safe place and no worse than other parts of South London. In fact its quite often much better. But with more bars open later of course you are going to get more trouble. The endless London coke epidemic we are in doesnt help.... The Bishop was full of runny noses the other night and one guy doing lines out a bottle right in front of the bouncer! Michael Eavis once said he'd happily have 100,000 nicely stoned than the same number all beered/coked up. Clearly you get more aggression with that particular combo.

Thinking about all the countless nights out when I have staggered up the hill with a kebab or badly chatted up girls in LL bars I have never had any problems. Although I had two shootings close to my place in 2004 and 2005 , one where a bullet lodged into the wall of the hairdressing supply shop on Sylvester road at about head height the other a drive by on Barry Road at the junction with Underhill where they found bullet cases but no casualties. But that stuff happens all over London all the time.

I like the feel about LL and ED in general. It still seems safe. Thats a good thing. It has a long way to go before it rivals Clapham high st which is now essentially a chain bar / club style destination place rather than all locals.

In ED, I meet people who come up from Forest Hill, Crystal Palace or Honor Oak but thats about it...and there are CCTV camera everywhere now (noted when I scrapped a graffiti attempt to replace the "W" of White stuff with an "S" - I can live with drunken behaviour but not pastel yachting sweaters which I find deeply offensive).

[downsouth]

MrBen Wrote:

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The Bishop was full of runny

> noses the other night and one guy doing lines out

> a bottle right in front of the bouncer!

>

> are CCTV camera everywhere now (noted when I scrapped a graffiti attempt to

> replace the "W" of White stuff with an "S" - I can

> live with drunken behaviour but not pastel

> yachting sweaters which I find deeply offensive).

EDF - a mine of information for the local bobby on the street!

[MrBen]

Yes.... the fashion police! Those jumpers are one of the worst local offenses I have seen. Ban them now.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Last time I was back home at New Year, I went with my brother and some other people to a club in Liverpool. They had bouncers every 4 meters or so inside the club in addition to the 10 on the door.

In that one club, on that one night, I saw one guy get glassed, another get bottled, 2 girls trying to kick the crap out of another girl on the dancefloor even though each were pounced on by the bouncers and ejected with such speed, you would have missed it if you'd blinked.

On our way to the car, I saw gangs of semi naked guys roaming around looking for fights, and one drunken guy threatening about 5 others with a knife.

I'd forgotten how bad it was were I grew up, and think the random violence I've seen in London, is no where near as bad as up north.

I think divided societies, marginalisation and not enough positive outlets for adrenaline junkies combined with a dog eat dog world all contribute to this phenomenon.

[SeanMacGabhann]

now now, not ALL of them are like that. I have worn perfectly good jumpers from there and have yet to be pulled up by people who are all to quick to do so on other occassions

And besides there are other threads for the White Stuff debate - let's not get this one lounged too

[Michael Palaeologus]

I thinkthis phenomena is found all over but London in particular has so many areas of varied social and economic profile crammed together that leaching from one area to another is inevitable. The boozed up middle-classes are a fright to see and this combined with visitors looking for a good (or bad) time adds to the mix.

The EDF has over the past few days seen a number of posts from people reporting criminal or just bad behaviour that they or loved ones have been the victims of. The question is whether this is reflective of a surge in such behaviour or whether it is always there and just doesnt get reported.

The area has a rep for being well off and so that may attract those that would wish to feed off that wealth or just have a go at the nice middle class people OR much of this might be ED feeding off itself.

[MrBen]

Sean I apologise. I suppose some of the jumpers are alright - if you like that kind of thing. But to get back on thread the white stuff that contributes most to violence is coke not bad jumpers and coke + alcohol + rich people living next to poor people = occasional violence on any high street (and of course all the other social factors).

To back up Chav - I have lived in the Treme in New Orleans for 6 months (city had highest murder rate in US and The Treme had most of those)) , walked the ar$e end of Brooklyn drug strip at 3am, have lived /played in London 9 years and never had any bother. But in Stirling Scotland where I grew up, I got mugged twice and was badly assaulted a third time (hospitalised ). On a Saturday night it was like the wild west.....

So comparatively ED is a walk in the park and nasty though it sounded, the odd violent incident is not particularly reflective of some kind of simmering evil in SE22.... unlike the jumpers! (Oooops sorry again Sean)!.

[SeanMacGabhann]

well, when you are THAT polite about it mrBen....

[citizenED]

Blokes and drink - pah!

Solution: Tattoo Fight Club onto the foreheads of those morons who go out looking for trouble - they can seek each other out and scrap away whilst everyone else enjoys a drink.

[Cassius]

Try Small Town England - thinking of a Devonshire coastal town in particular. Gangs of feral 16 year olds - girls in less clothes than I want to think about in mid-winter (do the young not feel the cold?). Peeing in gutters, vomiting in gutters, passing out in gutters (they do seem to pick on gutters I notice!).

I had to walk my 65 year old stepmother home - she is as feisty as hell, but no match for these kids.

My partner moved up to ED from Devon 4 years ago and is delighted how safe it feels in comparison.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Exmouth? Dear Leap pub?

[snorky]

no no no

youive got it all wrong

SE London is a WASTELAND of DRUGS and CRACK and SHOOTINGS and HOODIES

It must be true, I read it in the PAPER

But seriously, the most obvious result of this action wont likely a rise of the heads kicked in per 1000 of the population per friday night ratio, but increases in noise/ shite on the ground. broken glass / puke and suchlike - I have noticed it myself when Im up early to get the terribly middle class croissants etc on a Sunday morning - the place is a mess.

[Brendan]

I see far fewer fights in London than I used to back home in SA, it was almost seen as a kind of sport in my hometown, but I think that is because in London I have the option of choosing where I drink and not having to go to places where there is trouble because they are the only pubs open.

I have noticed more large groups of people, dressed up and obviously out all out together for a night along LL than a couple of years ago. I think we ED locals don?t bother so much with dressing up when we go down LL.

[david_carnell]

I think the previous comments about the socail mix are interesting. Anecdotally, when I was a student in Leeds a few years ago a odd state of affairs prevailed.

With exceptions it was notable that during the week when student nights were ten-a-penny in the city centre there was much less trouble than at a weekend when local Leeds guys and gals would be out and about as well. The tension between the two groups was palpable.

I'm not sure if this exists in the same form in East Dulwich. An economically diverse clientele is not a recipe for trouble in certain pubs (the Gowlett springs to mind) and yet it clearly has become one in some places on LL.

I think publicans/bar owners have to take some responsibility. Serving clearly drunk people who are barely standing is not clever and allowing in so many people into one venue to the extent you can barely get past people to the bar with knocking over drinks etc is a recipie for trouble. Less people, a bit more space = less stress = less trouble. Somehow I can't see that taking off though.

[Cassius]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> Exmouth? Dear Leap pub?

Torquay - the London Inn - a Wetherspoons pub that is so bad that Wetherspoons changed it into a Lloyds (?)

Just don't go in if you are over 17 - or unless you want to pick someone up under 17 (each to their own).

One point though - we took my partners 17 year old niece and her boyfriend out to a couple of pubs in ED and in both establishments their ages were asked (as they were literally only 3 months off their 18th's I lied!). They have both been drinking in Torquay without question since they were 15.

[SeanMacGabhann]

That is interesting. Ironically LadyMacGabhann was asked for ID when we recently visited Devon. Made her evening.

[Jah Lush]

Ere' you looking at my bird? Yeah! you, didn't you kill my bruvva? Come on then!!(6)

Blockheads Oi Oi!