ED is becoming less diverse as a result of recent Demog. changes (Lounged)

[snorky]

Discuss

[capt_birdseye]

No

[German Lux]

Actually yes. We should discuss this. Out of the 5 families that have moved out of my street this year, 4 of them are black. A lot of the shops that catered to the large Afro-Caribbean community that's traditionally been a big feature of East Dulwich have disappeared - Jerk Rock, the Afro barber shop that's become sugar. I'll expect The Irish Shop and Thomas More Hall to become some posh cheese shop and giant baby accessories megastore in the next couple of years. House prices have risen yeah yeah yeah, but it's becoming a depressingly homogenous white middle class enclave as a result. Is gentrification always an economic form of ethnic cleansing ?

[TillieTrotter]

yes

[Louisa]

I brought this topic up months ago!

If you take a comparable look at the 1991 census compared to the 2001 census and then the mid-census estimates on ethnic makeup of wards and boroughs (as listed on the national statistics website), the white population of southwark as a whole as risen by 6% between 91' and 01', and then shot up another 5% on the estimation done in 2005. At a time of mass immigration and a shrinking white population across most other London boroughs, it does seem to fit in with the gentrification in ED. Southwark has bucked the trend on diversity since 1991, and this process appears to be accelerating into the 2000's. It's very interesting for sociologists and people into their demographics, but it also makes worrying news for people with concerns about social cohesion and community relations.

[AndrewP]

The white population may be increasing, but it may be getting more diverse if the increase is due to more non-British whites i.e. West and East Europeans, Antipodeans, S Africans etc. I suspect that there has been a big increase in people from these areas in recent years.

[Quaywe]

AndrewP Wrote:

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> The white population may be increasing, but it may

> be getting more diverse if the increase is due to

> more non-British whites i.e. West and East

> Europeans, Antipodeans, S Africans etc. I suspect

> that there has been a big increase in people from

> these areas in recent years.

I can vouch for that...

[SeanMacGabhann]

The term "ethnic cleansing" is an emotive phrase isn't it?

The difference between what ethnic cleansing actually IS, and large portions of a community deciding recent changes in an area aren't to their taste are completely different things.

Plenty of white folk on here have expressed a desire to leave if the current trend to gift/cheese shop openings continues.. no one is going to call that ethnic cleansing if it happens

What constitutes the "high street" ie Lordship Lane apart, my eyes tell me this area is as diverse as any and long may it continue

[Maurice]

Double standards afoot....

When the area was predominately white and immigrants (at the time) started moving in, I'm sure anyone bemoaning the change in the community make-up were called racists and bigots by the same ilk that today are crtical about displacement going the other way.

I have no problems with any neighbours based on their colour, race, creed, etc. I just want people who respect the area and have pride. It seems ED is gaining on that front.

[ibo]

Economic ethnic cleansing of black people is certainly taking place . I know of several black families that have taken the money and moved to places such as the West Indies and Croydon .The majority of people replacing these families are young and white.

[Mark]

Just to reiterate again what others have said so that hopefully some others get the picture, my neighbours that I know are Swedish, Canadian, English, Polish, Irish, Indian and Scottish. It's not just a visual black and white thing anymore and so in answer to the question no, I don't think East Dulwich is becoming less diverse.

[downsouth]

Gosh this is an emotive one but one I have been thinking about for a while. Many of my friends grew up in and around the area. When the time came many couldn't afford to buy here and for those who could they preferred to get more bang for their buck in other parts of South East London. I share some of Maurice's opinion on this and agree that the change in the main has been welcome. But there does for some of my friends seem to be this stranger in his own land scenario which I'm sure could be voiced by others in the 1950s thru 1970s and even now in some areas by intolerants. I think the best way to articulate this situation is that some people no longer feel 'welcome' in East Dulwich not necessarily in an overt way but subtely. Yes shops closing down could be one manifestation but that perhaps is overegging the pudding.

To be honest many 'black' people don't go to Caribbean restaurants as they or their family will cook a nicer meal and if they are men many won't endure a marathon session at the barber shop. The real issue is that from anecdotal evidence the livery's of LL are not as inviting and hospitable as they once were. Is this simply poor customer service? I'm not sure but with some of the rave reviews I see on here some of my friends who have had very cold experiences would not pay a return visit.

So it is not an issue of diversity per se but, as has been mentioned by Sean and others, a shifting demographic which I suppose now sets the tone for the area.

So there is an 'issue', even if it is a psychological one.

Edited for a typo.

[Keef]

ibo Wrote:

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> I know of several black families that have taken the money and moved to places such as the West Indies and Croydon

Sorry, that sentence just made me laugh a lot! >:D<

Wonder which one I'd chose if I had the dosh...

[SeanMacGabhann]

  Quote

But that doesn't make it economic ethnic cleansing does it? Taking the money and choosing to return home is a choice. When Eastenders move from Mile End to Essex it's not economic ethnic cleansing is it? It's two sides of the same coin - ie shifting demographics (happening since for EVER by the way) can, to some people, make other areas/choices more desirable.

downsouth - excellent post and I can imagine my mother being very much of the same mindset as your friends/family. As my (by proxy) father in law put it on a visit to ED a couple of years ago "so this is where the chattering classes live"

[kford]

.

[kford]

'Ethnic cleansing' - hang on, these families are not being forced out; they're taking the money and running. The large Indian family we 'displaced' moved because our property was too small for them and they fancied moving out to somewhere quieter. They were seduced by the estate agent doordrops, obviously. Maybe we should follow them up with leaflets saying 'Please stay and help keep ED diverse'.

Jerk Rock closed because it was rubbish, by the way. If it was a decent ethnic restaurant, I'm sure it would've survived.

[Keef]

I always liked Jerk Roc. Service was sh!t, but it was tasty!

[SeanMacGabhann]

I'm with Keef on this - much missed. I hear Rice'n'Peas is good but is that bit too far away for me to carry home

Service at JR was sloooow but they were usually v nice

[mockney piers]

"Economic ethnic cleansing of black people is certainly taking place . I know of several black families that have taken the money and moved to places such as the West Indies and Croydon"

Ethnic cleansing is a horrible term whereby people of an ethnic group (or similar sounding surname etc) are forced out of an area by coercion, terror, rape and murder. What you describe is known as cashing in, no matter how terrifying the prospect of moving to Croydon may be.

I do wish people would stop cheapening this term.

Are they also housing market collateral damage perchance?

[SeanMacGabhann]

well said that MP

[blinder999]

I also loved Jerk Rock's food, I miss it.

[Administrator]

Stay on topic please

[blinder999]

soz - I think it is relevant though - "ED is becoming less diverse as a result of recent Demog. changes" - ok, yes it is, a West Indian restaurant's gone, replaced by a chi-chi clothes shop. boo.

[mockney piers]

Oh, and well said downsouth, I think you're addressing the real issue here.

[ed_pete]

Is there an assumption that more diversity=good, and less diversity=bad? Why ?.